to want a "live and let live" approach to the SAHM vs WOHM debate, and not an accusation of letting the side down, as presented in this article. And yes I know you're all groaning now.

[emkana]

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article6432015.ece

[Northernlurker]

Which bit exactly do you feel is an accusation of letting the side down?

[JackBauer]

I just wish that female journalists coudl write about something else, this kind of article bores me to tears. It's nto going to persuade anyone, it's not interesting, it's just a defense of her decision. Which was her decision, and therefore no-one else's business.

Oh, and

[crokky]

I think she is being a bit rude about SAHMs. She doesn't seem to appreciate that every family's particular mix of circumstances (financial, health, extended family etc) are different. Every woman makes the best decision she can for her family based on all the factors at the time. There should be a live and let live approach - the woman is just ignorant.

[emkana]

northernlurker, a hostility towards SAHM's permeates the whole piece IMO

[TheCrackFox]

I used to read the Times but that was back in the days when it was a proper paper.

[SweetEm]

She has a warped sense of what a SAHM does all day - "neatly organised sock drawers", "plumped-up cushions"? Not in my house!

As for the "gin-soaked afternoons" - if only!

[OmicronPersei8]

It's funny that before women have children it is easy for society in general to accept that as people/individuals women find all kinds of different careers and lifestyles that suit them. Once they have children it becomes this black and white issue, which is ridiculous IMO, if were all these complex and varied before becoming parents it seems obvious that our needs, interests and expectations of life would continue to be varied. There are many different criteria for fulfilment in life, we don't all have to be the same.

That said, it is important that we have the choice as well - I hate that anyone judges women for being SAHM or WOHM, and worse that we seem to judge each other. This article is full of sneers at SAHM, a bit sad really.

[OmicronPersei8]

we're all this

[HecatesTwopenceworth]

I do wish people could just accept that everyone makes the choice that is right for them and someone giving their opinion and saying why they made their choice, is just about them and their situation, and not in itself an attack on anyone making a different choice.

[Tortington]

the trouble is even by sayong - 'i parent this way' means by default that you somehow disagree with parenting the other way.

|I wish some people would recognise that most people aren't climbing the career ladder - they literally have to work an there is no choice involved

[OrmIrian]

May I just say;



Stop fucking whingeing! This was what you wanted. Well now you've got it and aren't you lucky. A career which presumably enjoy and children which hopefully you love.

I think myself very very lucky indeed (mostly ).

Life isn'y supposed to be easy.

[OmicronPersei8]

Hecate, I agree with what you say - you see it all the time on MN, I think it's hard not to bristle about stuff because it's all so emotional being a mum. I still think some people express their choice by looking down on other people's. Again, something you see all the time with parents. I've certainly had conversations in RL where the other mum bangs on about how awful x is and how wonderful her approach is I just say nothing as of course I do x. And I'm sure I've been that mum before as well!

[southeastastra]

you're all in an invisible competitive writing contest

if you really cared you'd run for local government hmm

[foxinsocks]

I like reading the Times but I too despair at all this sort of shite

and I want to know, quite honestly, how many of you have ever encountered this sort of hostility in real life (i.e. not on mumsnet, not on reading papers etc.).

I have never met such overt hostility in my life. If anything, when I went back to work full time (though dabbled in part time before that), I was overwhelmed by the generous offers by SAHMs that I knew who very kindly offered to help out in emergencies etc. etc.

I just think these sort of stories create the impression of this hell hole war zone in north west london where these journos live where you walk out the door and are immediately victimised and pounced upon whether you are a SAHM or a WOHM.

[MrsSchadenfreude]

I think that's a pretty accurate description of my life, actually. Not whingeing, just stating a fact. And would love to run for local government or parliament, but my job won't let me.

[MrsSchadenfreude]

I've had overt hostility from SAHMs, Foxinsocks. I've been asked why I bothered having children when I just "gave them to some Filippina to bring up," and asked if my husband "feels emasculated because you earn more than him." (This last met with complete incomprehension from a couple of other SAHMs, BTW - they looked at me and said "What does she mean - you don't actually earn more than your husband, do you?")

[foxinsocks]

where do you find these people MrsSF?

[MrsSchadenfreude]

At my children's last overpriced international school. I was the only working mother of children in the Infant school (and very probably the junior school too).

[hatwoman]

what an unspeakbly horrible article. first off she assumes (like some bloke in the media recently, wasn;t the M&S guy it was some other ignorant idiot, off Dragon's Den I think) that the battle is won and women have the same choices as men. sorry but that's a load of tosh. society is still set up so that for most women (and I'm not even talking about those for whom work is a basic and absolute necessity) who want a "career" the choice is have career and leave kids in care of someone other than their parent, or stay at home. how many blokes face that choice? unfortunately it's still hardly any. they don;t even think about it in the same terms as women - when it comes to having kids we're still not equal partners.

second she paints a ludicrous picture of sahms - certainly not one I recognise. and one, given the newspaper and the description of the school, that I have a sneaking suspicion is based on a private school. ie a very minority view.

and third - like so many tedious journalists before her she perpetuates this ridiculous us and them / competitive mum picture that I have had the good fortune, in 9 years of being a mum, not to have encountered. most parents i know, inc wohms/ds sahm/ds and shades of grey inbetween are, you know, nice people. who are just getting on with their lives without staring at their navels and judging others.

and breathe. and pour wine...

[bigmouthstrikesagain]

I agree Fox - I am Sahm and I don't feel this competitive/ edgy/ judgy vibe towards/ from wohm's spoken of in these endless articles.

Perhaps it is only in certain leafy North London Suburbs that you come accross these attitudes. Here (in the real world) you work cos you have or you work cos you want to or you stay at home if you want to/ need to.

All this bunting/ cupcake making/ gin drinking mallarky is alien to me... I never feel there are enough hours in the day, simply managing the housework and children - the thought of holding down a job as well as brings me out in a cold sweat.

These articles are polemics designed to get us all riled and whip up a bit of controversy not well researched or balanced so - Pffhhhtttt [shrugs shoulders in Gallic fashion]

[MrsSchadenfreude]

And I ended up being class rep because all of the SAHMs were "too busy" to take it on. I told the teacher to stuff it after she wrote "see me" in the home/school diary after I had apparently, inadvertently upset another mother.

[MrsSchadenfreude]

And would add that SAHMs at current village primary school are lovely.

[foxinsocks]

ah I see. Yes I do wonder whether most of the reason I don't see this is the type of school mine are at.

How hideous for you MrsSF. Makes me proper cross that sort of thing. Think I probably would have made some totally inappopriate comment right back if someone said something like that to me.

[hatwoman]

foxinsocks - a friend and I once had lunch with a 3rd, mutual, old friend. the 3rd friend was a childless journo. when my friend and I said we just didn;t recognise and had never encountered that competitive/aggressive shite the papers peddle she clearly didn;t beleive us. no idea what her evidence base was, but we two parents were, apparently, taking rubbish...

[bigmouthstrikesagain]

MrsSF - sorry that you experience has been so hideous of SAHM - but in a very particular environment of competitive middle class SAHM - nasty pieces of work. So unsisterly