To think my DH should cut our son some slack?

[Birdsnotbees]

DS1 is nearly 4. He is lovely. I know I would say that but he is. We hang about with other kids and he's pretty well behaved in comparison - when the other boys are fighting and throwing stuff about, he's sat reading a book and telling them not to. I sometimes worry about him as he's more like a 50 year old in a toddler's body. He's also very sensitive and so I have to tread carefully when telling him off. I say that not as I am a soft-as-shite parent (I'm not, I can't stand badly behaved kids) but as he takes everything to heart - he thinks about stuff a lot. I am also not saying all this to brag - the way my DS is brings its own problems.

Anyway, since DS started school his behaviour has gone downhill. He's knackered, basically, and a bit stressed as he finds group situations tough.

He has started hitting me or his baby sister a lot, particularly when I say no to him. He asks me constantly for sweets/chocolate/new toys/a magazine - for hours at a time and sometimes straight after I've bought him something. He won't eat his tea. He won't have his bath. Etc.

Tbh, none of this seems terrible to me. But DH is really struggling with it. Blames me for giving in to DS (I don't but I do pick my battles). Because DH isn't very sociable he never hangs out with parents with kids DS's age and so he doesn't know what they're like at this age. So every time DS steps out of line he really shouts at him, puts him straight on the naughty step and so on. Last night he was shouting at DS to make him eat his tea, shoving food into his mouth until it was all eaten. It just felt wrong, a little like bullying, and sometimes I feel that it's too easy to fall into this 'do as I say NOW' style of parenting (which DH and I were both brought up with) than actually thinking it through and working out what might work better. Or you know treating DS like a person rather than as a little shite who has to be squashed into obedience.

DS is being difficult, yes. He won't listen and the usual sanctions aren't working. It's hard for me to deal with but I'm pretty sure it's a phase - he is a good kid. But am I wrong?

[ScaredTEECat]

He shoved food into his mouth?!?!?! Your husband is being a bully.

[BootyMum]

Oh your poor son! Having food shoved in his mouth, it's not a little like bullying, it is bullying.

He sounds pretty normal for his age imo. And perhaps a little jealous of baby sister, hence the hitting?

Has your DH read any positive parenting books or guides? it sounds like he needs to.

[SpookhettiTwirlerAndProud]

That sounds awful! Forcing him to eat his tea? Shoving food into his mouth? That is bullying! He is being far too hard on him! 4 year olds are bloody awkward, your DSs behaviour sounds like normal 4yo behaviour to me, my nephew is just like that, just started school, always whinging about everything, asking for this, that and the other, refusing to get dressed, put shoes on etc. Your DH needs to understand what 4yos are like!

[Hardgoing]

Well, that's one way to give him a complex about food.

Seriously this is not ok, you need to stand up for your son against your husband. You need to say to your husband 'you are over-disciplining him and scaring him and I will not let you do that, or shove food in his mouth'. Then you need to find ways together to manage his behaviour.

[Birdsnotbees]

Thanks for that - I should say he wasn't shoving it in (god it sounds awful reading it back), more shoving a loaded spoon at him and telling him to eat it now. Hmmm, which doesn't sound much better really.

I am made to feel like I am being a lax parent, but I do genuinely think DH expects too much of DS. I think he forgets he's not yet 4 - because he's so advanced in some areas (just in the types of conversation you can have with him, his reasoning etc.) - then he expects him to act like this all the time. But he's still just a baby in so many ways.

[Hassled]

The food thing is just absolutely shit. No excuses - it's just awful. No wonder your DS is frazzled and playing up - I'd have some issues if someone was forcing food into me and shouting at me. Do you not think this might be self-perpetuating?

Most children are nightmares when they start school. There have been a load of threads here about it. And 4 year old boys are often boundary-pushing nightmares - they have a testosterone surge or something. The two together are a perfect storm. Ride it out, pick your battles, count to ten a lot.

Your problem isn't with your DS, it's with your DH. Show him this thread. He needs some empathy and some patience.

[MangoMonster]

Shoving food in his mouth is not really going to help. Think you need to talk to your dp and agree on a way to deal with your DS.

[Birdsnotbees]

Hardgoing - I do and I did. He just thinks DS's behaviour is 'taking the piss'.

He is a very good dad, very hands on, they adore each other, but both DH and I had strict parents and I think at times of stress, like when DS is really pushing it, we both revert to the 'do as I say' model of parenting. Which I hate - even as I do it myself, I hate it.

[Birdsnotbees]

And I shouted at DS today as well. He's really really pushing boundaries at the moment. I just think DH thinks I never say no to him but some days that's ALL I seem to say!

[Aimster]

This sounds a lot like my DH. He has never been around children; none of his friends have children; and he doesn't have any experience of what children can be like except for dealing with our DC.

We went through a similar thing last year when DS was about 3 1/2. DH could not understand why DS was slow at doing certain things, was getting worried that he was not eating properly (which led to similar scenes as the one you've described with the loaded spoons) and was getting cross with DS whenever he did anything the slightest bit naughty.

DH is a lot better now and can cope with DS. This is due to:

• Me reading 'How to talk to kids so kids will listen...' and 'Playful Parenting', so I knew exactly what I was asking DH to change.
  
• Getting DH to realise his behaviour was over the top at times. For example, I modelled the way he was treating DS when we ate together without the DC. I loaded up a spoon, held it near his face and said all the things he said - 'Oh come on, you haven't had enough, you must still be hungry', etc. Tried to do it in a funny way though to get the point across!
  
• Getting DH to realise HIS mood determined the sort of day we were going to have with DS.
  
• Getting DH to think about the childhood he wants his son to recall - i.e. not a shouty dad but a loving one, who respected DS and who DS would be happy to share a pint with (when slightly older of course!).
  
• Me going on, and on, and on, about how DS's behaviour was entirely developmentally right for his age, and reminding DH that things are hard for children that age (dealing with tiredness or hunger, having a mini-meltdown if you're trying to get on clothes when an adult is standing in front of you having a go about how slow you are, etc).
  

Changes only started happening after DH acknowledged his own behaviour wasn't right. We had to find a way for him to stop focusing on the awkwardness of DS (as DH saw it) but on his own behaviour and how that affects the family.

I hope you find a way of getting through to DH. Sorry for the long post; it just struck a chord with me as I went through the same thing and it took a lot of work to change things.

[Birdsnotbees]

Aimster, that's really helpful thank you. I think it's so easy to forget that DS is only little, esp. now when we have a proper 'baby' again in the form of our DD. I will get those books, thank you.

[Aimster]

I agree with hassled when she says this might be self-perpetuating. It was in our case and DH had to see that he was the adult and the only one who could break the cycle between him and DS.

Our DS has also started school and has been acting up. We've got cross with him at times but in general we are so much calmer now, because we both understand that this is what tiredness and the new routine of school does to a child. So having talked it through and agreed a united stance on DS's behaviour, we both pick our battles and let the little things ride.

[Birdsnotbees]

Agree, Aimster, I do think it's self-perpetuating, esp. around eating his tea. My gut feeling is not to make an issue of it (although perhaps ease up on treats between meals) but by getting so cross with DS I suspect it'll be a while before eating tea becomes a relaxed affair again.

(DS is odd around food - he just doesn't know when he's hungry, eats incredibly slowly and really doesn't care that much about eating. Never has. So partly this is caused by his usual reluctance to eat but has now been made into an issue by overreacting about it.)

[BertieBotts]

Naughty step is fine, shouting at him, well, we all lose it sometimes.

Shoving food at him and/or being aggressive towards him is not on. You need to speak to your DH, at a time when no children around. Is he doing it because he thinks it's the way to get a child to behave, or is he just getting angry? Because if it's the former, you can explore different methods together, get him to read some books, etc. If it's the second he needs to think about some ways to manage his anger more effectively and prevent DS' behaviour from winding him up so much.

Plus, lots of children act up when they have just started school. It's a phase, it will pass.

[BertieBotts]

He sounds like my 3yo with food. The best thing we've found for dealing with it is to be ultra-relaxed because at the slightest bit of pressure he almost seems to go immediately into defence mode and refuses to eat at all.

We have to make sure he is eating early enough, so he's not too tired. He also often eats in front of the TV - which is a habit I got into when he was younger because I was so desperate for him to eat more. If we do eat together at the table though it seems to make no difference. If we eat together the rule is he has to stay at the table at least until we are finished, but we don't force him to eat. He has ketchup with everything. If he is particularly tired, sometimes we do feed him but we ask him first. This only tends to happen once every few months. DP is a bit more "Eat 3 bites of this and then you can have ice cream" whereas I'm more inclined to let him go if he really doesn't want more, but if he does ask for a pudding and he hasn't finished we do try to get him to eat more, we tell him that ice cream will hurt his tummy if it isn't full enough - which is sort of a twisting of the truth, I know I feel horrible if I just eat loads of sugar and no substance. I don't think this is 100% right but it's a compromise I can work with at the moment.

[Aimster]

How odd - my DS is the same around food too. He eats only enough to take the edge off any hunger. I've had to build in 40min for breakfast into the morning routine to make sure we get him to school on time.

Mealtimes were a real flashpoint for us and, actually, they still are when we're too tired to deal with them as we should. I've trained myself to show calmness on the outside and not make an issue of his eating.

I keep telling DH (and myself) that we need to trust DS and that he will get enough to eat if he is just left to it. It seems straightforward but is very hard to follow in practice.

[Birdsnotbees]

Aimster, do we have the same son?! Breakfast time is the same - minimum 45 mins, usually an hour. He's just so slow, even though this is usually the only time he says he's actually hungry. And he's not even playing up - he just eats really really slowly, and talks a LOT!

What do you do about puddings etc.? DS will always eat pudding (and any old crap like crisps and chocolate, although we don't often have them in the house). I don't like to say he can't have pudding but on the other hand if he won't eat his tea sometimes it's the only way to get him to eat (as in, eat your tea and you can have a pud).

Bertie, we are the same with the 'eat two more bites and you can have your pudding' but it makes me feel deeply uncomfortable. I don't want proper food to become a punishment and all sweet things the treat.

Luckily his sister appears to be the opposite. Took forever to wean DS (he only started eating proper meals around 12 months) but she's on 3 full meals a day plus snacks and milk at 8 months. It's such a joy to have a child who likes to eat, I can't believe the difference between the pair of them.

[BertieBotts]

Yes DS is the same, Aimster! Only enough to take the edge off, and then whining that he's hungry half an hour later. I've taken to really prioritising the carbs and protein in his meals, and offering fruit/veg etc as snacks (of course he does have veg as part of meals too, but mainly he eats them outside of these times). Being more strict about meal/snacktimes has helped too. He now tends to graze on breakfast cereal or toast from whenever we get up and drag ourselves downstairs (8/9ish) until 11 when I say he can have one piece of fruit and then has to wait for lunch. Lunch and dinner are really hit and miss.

He has got slightly better over the last year or so. It was only at 22 months that he really seemed to get the idea of food and will now eat at least something at 95% of mealtimes. Before then it was hard even to convince him of that.

[BertieBotts]

It makes me feel uncomfortable too :( But I do tend to rationalise it by thinking, I'm not actually overriding his hunger cues here - he's eaten half a fish finger, he cannot possibly be full up, he is playing up so he can have the ice cream.

Sometimes I let him have a small portion of the pudding first, like one pot of fromage frais, so it's just another part of the meal and no more or less prized, and then hopefully he's still hungry enough to want to eat some dinner afterwards. And not all sweet foods are rationed like this, he can generally have fruit or yoghurt even if he hasn't made much of an attempt at dinner, (though sometimes I get fed up and tell him it's toast or nothing) but overly sugary things like ice cream, sweets, chocolate, cake etc are. I think it's fair enough for them to be seen as treats. I never use them as a reward for other things, and I try to encourage him with food choices and making sure he has things he likes as well.

Recently he's been saying "I want nothing!" when you ask what he wants for tea and in a fit of desperation one day I said "Okay, hmm, nothing, what kind of nothing options do we have... hmm, I can see some air fingers, or some discs of nothingness with tomato sauce." and immediately he started giggling and said he wanted air fingers. So now fish fingers are called air fingers in our house and the trick is to eat them quickly before they float away

[blackeyedsusan]

he is just tired. he has just stated school and is exhausted, poor chap. he should be eased through the rest of the day and put to bed early, not shouted at. it does improve as the year goes on and they get older, but be prepared for it to come back again at the beginning of y1.

and shoving food at him is only going to make the problem worse. do you really ant a child that is frightened into submission by a bullying parent?

[Rollon2012]

Thats really bad op shoving it in his mouth , my ds literally ran and hit from a meal once.

at 4 he has preferences the 'you'll get nothing else' is punishment enough.

[Aimster]

Not only do we share the same son, our DDs are pretty similar too! DD is 18 months and has been fantastic with food. She feeds herself, eats until she's full and actively looks for food at mealtimes. It's such a nice contrast to DS. I do wonder if she's a good eater because the focus on DS has distracted us from focusing on her at mealtimes. We left her to get on with it much more than we ever did with DS.

The puddings thing I find difficult. For background - as a child I ate until I felt full (no pressure to finish all the food on the plate) and puddings didn't exist. I had treats but they were seperate from the 'main' food. This is how I wanted to treat DS.

However DS has got used to puddings from nursery and school lunches and asks for them at home. I usually offer him a yoghurt or fruit after a meal, even if I don't think he has had enough of the meal.

I too sometimes say 'eat two more bites and you can have a pudding' but I am trying not to say this anymore. I've started to say 'please tell me when you have finished eating because you feel full and then you can have a pudding'. He sometimes eats a bit more, sometimes doesn't.

if I do the two bites thing, I feel as if I'm forcing him to eat. What I really want is for him to eat until he's full and to recognise/trust the signals his own body is giving him. Instead it feels as if we're arbitarily deciding what is enough, which doesn't feel right.

[Birdsnotbees]

Bertie I like the idea of air fingers - suspect DS would too! That's the right way to do it, though, isn't it? Make it funny, diffuse the situation. I guess we're all bloody knackered right now (new baby, back to work for me, to school for DS) so being inventive about things like this is sometimes beyond both me and DH.

I am also really sensitive to the food/treat thing as my mum constantly made food into a battleground, treats were always given as reward, she was always on a diet (and still eats badly), and so surprise surprise I had an eating disorder in my teens.

Eurgh. DH was having an off day. I had one today, shouting at DS for being a PITA about something or other. No, I don't want a child bullied and submissive, not at all. It breaks my heart.

Thanks all for your comments and suggestions - I'm going to sort this before it goes any further. Off to bed now.

[Aimster]

BertieBotts - I did the same thing of prioritising protein and carbs! If I give DS a meal with veg - he eats the veg, takes the edge off his hunger and then won't eat anything else.

So, as bad as it sounds, I now offer him very limited veg at mealtimes. I try to give him his daily intake of fruit and veg during snack times.

I like your air fingers idea - will steal that next time we have fishfingers. We had them today and DS ate all the peas first, then a little potato, then had to be gently reminded that he had two untouched fishfingers on his plate. Arghhh!

[BertieBotts]

This was after weeks and weeks of DS deciding he wanted "pooks" or "neen" or "laaaa" for dinner. DP was more patient with those and would make some random combination of things and pronounce it "pooks" but I never quite dare to try new combinations when he's in a silly enough mood to be making up nonsense words. He doesn't seem to eat them for me. But the air fingers have really run and run. He asks for them willingly now, especially when he's tired or inclined to nonsense - it's almost like I've given him permission to be a bit silly and in control of something which is actually out of his control (which foods exist!) I've noticed he does the same with one of his books if he's a bit overtired - it's a lift the flap Thomas one and he will lift the flaps, say the wrong engine name and then giggle as though he can't help himself :) Then usually after the page he decides he needs to start again and will do it properly.

I do a similar thing to asking him to tell me when he is full, but I'm not convinced that DS understands what "full" means as he tells me he is full up but he wants ice cream and then when I (frustratedly) say he must be too full to eat ice cream then he gets frustrated. I tend to go down the road of reassuring him by saying that XYZ will still be there when he's finished eating his dinner. And if he's taken so long to finish eating that it's bedtime, or past it, I usually still let him have at least 15 minutes to play and let it go down before we go to bed. He can't tell the time yet so he's not really aware of this - by the time he can I'm hoping we'll be able to start working on speed of eating rather than quantity still.