Looking for support and inspiration - DP says feminism is 'totally outdated'

[Indiestarr]

Was having a chat with DP tonight over dinner and it degenerated into an argument. Initially we were talking about Islamic attitudes to women (in light of France banning the niqab), and it broadened into a discussion of attitudes here. I was making the point that even though oppressed/minority groups such as women/gays/whoever are in a pretty good position here, at this present moment in time, it's worth remembering that attitudes don't always move forwards and can infact move backwards, and so rights we've attained can actually be snatched away if we get complacent. My broader point was that feminism is still really important because even though a lot of the battles women have fought have been won, these victories can always be undermined and even reversed if we don't pay attention.

DP thought this argument was 'banal' because 'it's meaningless to speculate on what could happen', plus he pretty forcefully insisted that feminism is 'totally outdated' and asked me to explain why exactly things were so bad for me as a woman. I admit I had no ready examples of why things were 'so bad' but I did ask him how he would feel if our DD aged 7 came to him aged 18 and asked to have the money for a boob job because the boys didn't find her natural body attractive enough (ie she didn't look like a porn star). He said 'I'm sure she'd have more sense than that.'

What has left me reeling is the claim that feminism is 'totally outdated' and that, as he's effectively saying, women have nothing to complain about. To be honest I don't find myself complaining that much but that doesn't mean the battles have all been won. I also think it's important not to get complacent. Can anyone on here cheer me up with a little support :(

[MillyR]

Ask him to name a lesbian character from a British TV programme predominantly aimed at teens or children (it would have to have a DVD classification of less than 15).

[Thruaglassdarkly]

I hate to depress you further, but my DH says the same thing. He teaches at one of the leading girls' grammar schools in the UK and he's convinced that feminism's totally dead. These rich, bright, m/c girls seem to mostly aspire to making a wealthy match. They're obsessed with their hair, clothes, make-up and go to university - many to Oxbridge and Russell Group universities - to meet wealthy prospective husbands on the whole.
I watch my DH get up at 6.30, go to work and return 12 hours later, only to set about his marking at 10pm and whilst I do the school runs and care for the 3 y.o and house, which is hard work in some respects, it often involves coffee with my friends at a play place. I have a cleaner once a week for the deep clean and am studying for a second degree in a subject I enjoy. I do a lot around the house on a daily basis but DH does baths and beds. I have to say, I think I have it better than him in many ways. Plus we have a joint account and have joint names on everything. I guess I have no motive to fight. I have a 12 year career on hold too and I'm glad of that because I WANT to raise my kids and not be made to feel guilty that I don't go out to work. I'm not oppressed. I'm where I want to be and surely that is the point of feminism: that we have a right to chose.

[Thruaglassdarkly]

I have to add, when my DH is off and I turn my full attention to the house and try to catch up with all the sorting jobs that don't get done in term time, he gets to spend the day with our kids (mainly the 3yo as the 6 yo is easy) and admits it's so much harder than working. It isn't of course - I've taught for 12 years, so I know his workload - but it's what you get used to. If we swapped roles, which he is happy to do, then we'd both get used to those roles. I don't want to though, as I have a need to be at home with the 3 yo. When they're both at school, I'll go back to work, but part-time, as teaching full-time is a 50+ hour week. I chose that part-time option though. Not bothered about becoming a headteacher or part of SMT etc. Some women are and they should go for it. It's about the freedom to chose....

[southofthethames]

If it's referring to most women in reasonably well off (or on benefits) homes in the West, yes, it's fairly true - women and girls now have many privileges, in some (not all or many) instances, more than men and boys. But worldwide, that is not the case and in some ways, may be heading in the oppostie direction. Often linked with children's rights (or lack thereof) - that women and children are treated as chattels or third class citizens (you can all hazard guesses as to who/what is second), even if they are working (on farms, in sweatshops, etc) and looking after the family concurrently - younger siblings, in laws, etc. So, one hopes that the DPs/DHs were just talking about women around them in good jobs, good homes, and happy social/family circumstances. Not the majority of women outside Britain and much of the EU.

[Thruaglassdarkly]

Yes, mine was talking about m/c girls in Warwickshire. Obviously, it's a whole other story in other parts of the world. Great you pointed that out.

[Parietal]

These days, people rarely say out loud that a woman can't be a CEO of a big company or an engineer or an astronaut. But when women apply for jobs in trad male fields, they still have to have a CV much better than the men to be considered. There are several research projects showing this when people apply for jobs with equivalent CVs but change the name on the CV from John to Jane. The John CV always gets more interviews.

An example from my area (science) - a scientist called Ben had a sex change and became Barbara. Shortly after this, she gave a talk a big conference and overheard a comment afterwards "Ben's work is so much better than his sister Barbara". The commenter didn't realise that Ben & Barbara were the same person, but automatically thought the woman was less good!

Research suggests this is because everyone (not just men) is unconsciously biased, expecting men to work in some jobs and women in others. And these unconscious biases still make it harder for women to suceed in certain careers. So if you support the general principle that men and women are equally able and should have equal opportunities, then it is important to make this happen because we aren't there yet.

That is why I think feminism is not outdated and there is more to be done.

[msrisotto]

In some ways, nothing has changed for women. Get him to watch (yourubte) "Killing us softly". It is eye opening.

[InmaculadaConcepcion]

Whatever you might think of Daniel Craig in drag, the voice over by Judi Dench on provides some powerful reasons about why feminism is still very relevant.

Also, Bumper has done a power point (!) presentation for her DH on why feminism is still relevant - especially for those with DDs. She says she's going to make it available to others who want to convince their partners that feminism is still as important as ever.

[sethstarkaddersmackerel]

Thruaglassdarkly - interesting about your dh.
I went to one of those leading girls' grammar schools. He needs to meet a whole bunch of alumnae in their 30s and 40s who have believed the world was their oyster until they had kids and discovered first hand how much discrimination was still out there.

I'm fascinated by the idea that the girls in his school aspire to making a wealthy match - we didn't in my day, it was all about careers.

[Portoeufino]

Attitudes still need to be changed. From I can see the necessary legal framework is there to forge equal opportunities - though I would like to see equal parental leave for men at least, and ideally career breaks being available to everyone after a qualifying period, parents or no, to limit discrimination in the workplace.

I am very careful about the messages I give to my daughter. She told me recently that she thought "boys are better than girls" though couldn't tell me why she thought that. She is 7. I was very upset by that. Still we are trying to move away from girly dance classes this year (I have never, ever seen a boy in the building!) to tennis and riding. She does a jazz class, for which the clothing is supposed to be lose trousers and a fitted top. Every other girl goes dressed in a pink tutu. I wonder if it is the girls or their parents that pick the clothes.....

[OmicronPersei8]

I've been thinking a lot about this recently, lurking here and reading books (I'm reading Backlash: The undeclared war against women by Susan Faludi at the moment which is exactly about the 'feminism is over' argument'). Anyway one thing that made me realise that feminism is still so important was something rooted in mainstream culture. Last year I read about the on MN.

The Bechdel test asks three questions of a film:

1. Does it have at least two women in it?
   
2. Do they talk to each other?
   
3. About something other than a man?
   

Now whatever I see on TV, and any film I watch, I can't help but apply the Bechdel test. It's not a subtle test, or one which says how 'good' a film is, but it does highlight that women are still not seen as people, fully human. And I think that's what feminism is about. Seeing women as people in their own right. All the other things stem from this - the porn, rape and attitudes to it, all violence and control of women, inequality in the workplace, in politics etc. This might be a simplistic way of seeing things but it makes sense, and once you see it you can't unsee it.

So now I see a movie and and look, it has only one woman in it and she only exists to prop up the men. She is not a real person in her own right. This has got me thinking as to how women are seen in general. Even if the woman is high-powered in the film, she is still just there as a token character. So by the same thinking, you might have one female executive at a company, but all the other women working there could still a) be in the minority at senior levels and b) be paid less then men doing the same job.

Generally though, it's just about a world where women aren't seen as real people. And where this message is fed to us constantly.

[SardineQueen]

I agree with you SSM - having been to a school like that, and also what happens to the girls when they start having children.

I do agree of course that women in the UK have it a lot better than women in other parts of the world. Do these people see that feminism is still relevant in countries like saudi, pakistan, india, DRC, well I could reel off a huge list. Where the most awful things are happening to females because they are female. Presumably people are allowed to have a feminist viewpoint about those situations?

And then when looking at say rape or DV on women around the world - should the UK be left out? Women are pretty likely to experience violence (whether sexual or otherwise) and the hands of men in the UK - should this be ignored because "feminism is dead"? The bungling of police in recent high-profile serial sex offender cases - the report that followed did indicate that there were problems in the forces about dealing with sex crimes. Should this be ignored because of course the police can't be institutionally sexist (even though evidence has pointed this way) and feminism is not needed?

The work point is interesting. The choice argument seems to prevail against people who say that feminists are not needed and their arguments are outdated. Do sane people really believe that so many women are red hot keen, on having children, to throw in lucrative careers and hurl themselves and their children into poverty? That doesn't seem all that likely to me...

And on a personal note... If it is really true that these days all that our cleverest girls aspire to is looking pretty and marrying well... Then I would say that means feminism is needed more than ever!!!!! And apart from anything else, someone needs to tell these girls that people tend to marry people who are reasonably similar - so if they want to marry eg a top banker then their best bet is to also be a top banker. Plus the fact that if they don't manage to snare their top banker, or accidentally fall in love with someone in a less lucrative career, they will have the financial independence to carry on / marry him. Win win

[Portoeufino]

Good point about the Bechdel test. I saw the Adjustment Bureau on Thursday, where the "angels" or whatever you want to call them - the ones who control our destiny - were ALL men. Quite sinister when you think about it. There was only one woman in the film, and the point was to keep the male lead away from her, as "love" would have put him off fulfilling his destiny. Supreme failure in Bechdel sense then....

[LoveBeingAbleToNamechange]

How about taking a look at the twilight thread op

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

Indie, I completely agree with you that not only is equality far from being achieved in other countries, but that the rights we enjoy in this country could easily be retrenched.

Faludi's Backlash, as someone else has said, is a great book on this subject. It clearly charts how the supposed "progress" towards women's rights that we are told about - "back in the old days women stayed at home and were oppressed and now everything's just peachy, job done women" is a myth. There have been pushes towards full human rights for women, and then the patriarchy has pushed back. Hard. The way I see it is that while power structures (government, big business, banks, the justice system) are in the hands of men, we are all being borne on a slow, nearly unnoticeable conveyor belt back away from our goal of equality. It is a constant struggle on the part of feminists (both male and female) to fight against these power structures bearing us backwards. Does that make sense to anyone but me? :o Basically, I'm saying at the moment we have to run to stay still.

For things to actually change (in the UK and abroad) we need a LOT more people to start giving a toss about these issues. Ask your DP what his attitude is doing to help the women in Afghanistan. Or is it actually the case that by telling you not to worry your pretty head about feminism he is actually hindering their cause, by trying to hold you back from fighting for women's rights, everywhere?

And I mean in this country, the govt is consulting on scrapping Equalities legislation. And there are key members of the ruling party blaming feminism for restricting social mobility (because the social mobility of women doesn't count). And other members of the ruling party trying to restrict our abortion rights on an almost monthly basis.

[Bumperlicioso]

Dh and I had a similar argument this week. I responded by creating a power point presentation on why feminism is relevant as the father of 2 dds. He took it well. It's v rough and ready and not at all as good as it could be but if you pm me I could email it to you.

[Bumperlicioso]

Ooh just seen imaculada already said so. I promise when I get a chance I will google doc it and post a link.

[Indiestarr]

Thanks for all of your responses, some really great points. Thruaglassdarkly, the point about the grammar school is indeed interesting - and disturbing. All that struggle so that gifted, intelligent women can aim for a vacuous existence, chasing husbands a la Jane Austen . I do hope it's a generalisation! Presumably there are others who do want to make something of themselves on their own terms, and seth's point about what happens when children come into the equation and parietals great (dreadful!) examples etc are very pertinent.

My point about us in the west was exactly as ElephantsandMiasmas says - we have to run to stay still. I have indeed read Backlash (most of it anyway!). The patriarchy does indeed push back - just give them an inch. And as far as the rest of the world goes there is clearly a huge need for feminism, no question.

Dittany, as far as our relationship goes we both work full time and share chores/childcare up to a point, but I am most definitely the default carer....

[Indiestarr]

Bumper your PP presentation was mentioned earlier and I would love to see it - will indeed pm you, thanks.