to think this woman should have helped?

[notsolomon]

I went to an exercise class this morning. There are about 8 of us. A lady in her late sixties, started feeling ill..she was ashen, she felt dizzy and light headed and she was clammy to the touch (could just have been sweat cooling).

I lay her down, put coats under her feet to raise them up, and reassured her. Her left shoulder/jaw was hurting a bit. It was about 15 minutes before she felt well enough to sit up and she spent that time looking quite ill - eyes closed, heavy breathing, softly moaning.... I was considering calling for medical help but she remained lucid, able to speak and had a regular (if slightly odd) pulse, so I just sat with her. The others carried on dancing but were aware of the developing situation (one smallish room with 8 of us).

Luckily, the old lady recovered a lot by the end but I mentioned to another member of the class that I want to go on a first aid course as I never know quite what to do.

"Oh," said this other woman "I am a doctor actually, but I can't get involved outside the hospital because I am not insured. It is really awkward sometimes."

Either she must be wrong about her legal liability or the law is an ass. Surely a doctor doing her non negligent best to help someone outside a surgical setting because they happen to be there, would not be held personally liable for any untoward outcome? Was this doctor being overcautious (or callous) or was she right not to walk 4 paces over to check up on the ill woman? It just seems human to me.

[risingstar]

sorry- that is barking

what about when they ask on flights if there are any doctors present? dont they have some sort of moral obligation to help? Does she really mean that if someone drops in the street in front of her, she cant do CPR? if so, how come the rest of us can?

[MogadoredMemoo]

YANBU, despite what the law says she could have at least come over and helped you to make a decision about calling for an ambulance etc.

[LessNarkyPuffin]

Did she go to the hospital/doctors surgery? Left arm pain and jaw pain can be heart related.

[GloriaSmut]

This surprises me. My dss's partner is a LAS paramedic and she will always go to the aid of someone taken ill. Regardless of where and when. She doesn't actively go looking for casualties outside work but couldn't leave someone unattended even if all she recommends is the calling of an ambulance,

[Gleekfreak]

The law is an ass. She's right, unfortunately! If she did something that then may prove to be the wrong thing in that situation, she could be sued, whereas you, without being a doctor could do the same wrong thing, but as you're not qualified,wouldn't be sued if you see what I mean

[bubbub]

i think she is right about the liability thing, and it is shocking that in an emergancy the doctor would first have to think about saving their job or not being sued instead of helping an ill person.
its the sue culture, everyone wants someone to blame, if the person dies, and that doctor had touched her the family of the deseased could say they wouldnt have died had they not touched her/him. its sick and i couldnt imagine doing that myself, i would be grateful anyone could help, but im sure there are some people out there that would.

in a movie when someone gets taken ill and someone shouts out, "is there a docyor in the house?!"
the answer will now be "yes but im sorry there is nothing i can do, due to me not being insured."
doesnt quiet have the same cinematic effect does it.

[Gleekfreak]

Morally, however, think she should've helped out.

[TotemPole]

A doctor's said the same thing to me in the past. I don't know if it's true or the exact details.

It was something along the lines of:

If they do something and it goes wrong they're a professional so they're held liable. It's different for a passer by/non professional.

I know it sounds daft.

[mmsmum]

It's the law, it's an ass

My Mum is a nurse and was recently on a plane when a call was put out for medical help. If she were to attend the emergency she would then be liable to be personally sued. That could mean losing her home and her job. That's why no-one helps

[Rhinestone]

Well she is an idiot. My sister is a doctor and has stopped to help on numerous occasions, including one where an old lady had a heart attack at a bus stop.

[BooyFuckingHoo]

she is right.

my mum is a midwife and has been specifically advised not to provide medical assistance outside of her job role because she leaves herself vulnerable to being sued.

[LessNarkyPuffin]

Some would help. But they'd be risking their careers by doing so.

[mmsmum]

Cross post with everyone, I got distracted and took 8 minutes to write that lol Will refresh next time!

[Rhinestone]

at mmsmum's mum

Whatever happened to doing the right thing?

[LessNarkyPuffin]

No win no fee happened.

[Rhinestone]

There's also a 'Good Samaritan' precedent.

[mosschops30]

It is essentially bollocks.

I am a nurse, my code of conduct says that as a nurse I have a duty to help within my capabilities in n emergency or medical situation.
Yes I could be sued, but there have been cases where members of the public have tried to sue after a nurse helped them and in most cases it's thrown out of court.
Obviously I cannot perform open heart surgery or amputate a limb but surely acting within your limitations is the human thing to do.

There's no reason why this doctor couldn't hav helped, I have been asked to see someone on a plane with chest pains, I wouldn't dream of refusing.

[iskra]

Yup the law is an ass.

However I do think most offer to help.

My dad got a bottle of liquer from KLM as a thank you when he responded to a doctor on the plane call out...

[mmsmum]

Doing the right thing is not risking your home and career. Although my Mum did say that if it had got to a 3rd call she would have gone to see what it was, but no more than that without further info.

It's not new either, my Mum trained a hundred years ago and nurses were taught then, as they are now, that they should not help.

I actually don't think that a medical professional would stand back and watch someone die, and I don't think anyone really believes that would happen. But they do know that most things aren't life threatening

[mosschops30]

booey I think you're incorrect. Your mum would come under the same NMR code as me and could be sued for not helping when he has the knowledge.
Are you saying she would walk past a labouring woman in the supermarket?

[iamabadger]

I've always been told that even if some ungrateful person tried to sue you, they would not get very far! Especially if they required CPR, as they would technically be dead anyway and you can't get worse than dead. Find it very odd that the whole class continued to dance, regardless of any medical training.

[KnockedUpMell]

It depends on her insurance provider (not all doctors have private insurance, in which case she would only be covered for NHS work). She should have offered assisstance, but only if she was competent to do so (i.e. in a relevant specialty), and if she didn't have relevant insurance, she may have been liable if any harm came to the patient.

so.. yanbu, but her actions may have reasons behind them

[Rhinestone]

Thank you Mosschops for talking sense and being the kind of nurse the public want.

[mosschops30]

NMC

[mrsmellow]

Regardless of the liability, most doctors would come to help - I certainly do. And without begin there, it's hard to comment, but it sounds like the lady in question ought to go and see her GP!