Going round in circles - how do I move this on before I lose my mind???

[NotSureHowMuchMoreICanTake]

I've posted before as "regulary overwhelmed" and "evenboringmyselfnow". I keep thinking I am getting somewhere but then get stuck. Hoping I can get some support on here to help me make sense of it all and get the strength to do what i need to do.

Me and H have been together 16 years, have two DDs 7 and 4. There have been ups and downs over the years. He never wanted kids/marriage I did. We discussed a lot. I said I was going to have kids with or without him and did he want to hang around - he did. We had them. Things have been very up and down since. He is a big drinker (think c 100 units a week on a bad week, maybe 70-80 on a good, trying not to drink now for Jan and miserable as can be). I used to be but aren't now, apart from erratically and I don't much like getting drunk anymore - it makes me depressed and disappointed in myself.

We went for one round of counselling about 18 months ago. I've suffered really bad depression last 3 or so years and GP referred us for counselling in the hope it might help us address some issues I thought might be contributing to the depression. It wasn't a great success. He is very intellectual and a great talker and I think bamboozled poor counseller. He would just talk and talk and talk in our sessions abd they were very non-directed. Outside the sessions he wouldn't engage at all except one evening when he got very drnk and told me about minor fling he had had (the words "meteorological accident" might ring bells for anyone who read my previous threads) and about feeling he wanted to have sex with other people. I've never quite gotten to the bottom of wnether he really does, or whether that's just a fantasy but it was pretty hirtful at the time. Especially as he's been pretty off sex with me for ages and despite all the efforts I've made (date nights, sexy lingerie, you name it) that hasn't much changed.

Anyway...to the present...since September last we have been SUSR (Separated Under Same Roof). I've been doing my thing - he's been doing his. It's been ok. He seems happy enough with arrangement, head still firmly in sand about future, doesn't want to talk about it, doesn't seem to want to think about it. Meanwhile I am in psychotherapy trying to figure myself out. Spoke to GP last week and she said she would be happy to try to support him with teh alcohol issues. I told him this and I could have sworn he said he'd go and see her but then yesterday he told me that was just my advice and he might not. We also agreed (I thought) last week that he would go and stay with some frineds from end of this month so that he would be forced to take his head out of the sand but again now he tells me that was my idea and he might not.

I don't know whether am coming or going. I don't know whether I want us to try to work on it more or whether it's just futile. The sensible part of me says its futi;e, if he hasn't faced up to it after 5 months separated he is not going to. His levels of disengagement are exstraordinary. But I feel the weight of all teh decision making is on me, and I resent that very much. I get angry with him about it and then just passive. Over xmas there was a real danger if he had shown willing that I would have fallen into bed with him and been back to square 1. He didn't show willing. I still like him a lot but am not sure I respect him anymore. I need some affection, physical and otherwise and oscillate between feeling really strong and sure I can move on and into better position to facilitate that, and feeling total despair and worrry about thefuture and whether am making right decisions.

Meanwhile colleague at work fancies me and is very affectuonate etc but is married. I love the affection from him but don't want to go down that route.

Oh can soemone talk sense into me and help me work out a plan.

Sorry about length and typos - rushing out to collect a child. Back soon

[traumaqueen]

A complete outsider's first impressions from your post.

He is an alcoholic in denial; unfaithful; and selfish. These are choices he has made for his life without giving a toss about the consequences for you or your dcs. They are not the choices of a loving husband or a good father.

You say 'I feel the weight of all teh decision making is on me, and I resent that very much'. You seem to be putting a lot of effort into trying to encourage him to take some of the responsibility and engage with the situation (counselling, seeing the GP about his drinking).

Unfortunately, if he was willing or able to change things he would have by now. He is NOT going to do it for you.

You have a choice.

EITHER You can stop being the victim and make a happy future for yourself and your children but pay the price of this in the short term - making some decisions, taking on some undeserved guilt and criticism, putting up with him saying it is All Your Fault maybe. It will be tough short term, fantastic long term.
OR you can carry on as you are - can you take another 20 years of this? Will you look back and say 'that was a life well spent'?

Horrible situation for you. Hope you have strong friends to turn to.

[MIFLAW]

This all sounds very unpleasant for both of you and you have my sympathy.

I can't begin to advise you on what to do but let me have a shot at guessing what's going on in your husband's head and maybe that will help you to decide for yourself.

Your husband spends the majority of his waking hours feeling like death warmed up. He really wishes he didn't - it's become normal and he probably puts it down to getting old but, nonetheless, he is aware he ddin't always think like this and qalso that not all men his age do feel like it. FWIW the government definition of a "heavy drinker" is 35 units a week, and most people who drink as much as your husband consciously or subconsciously lie about their consumption anyway, so it might well be even more than you mention. The simplest lie of all is to get the size of a "unit" wrong ...

He is also well aware that his drinking is causing problems to him and to others and he wishes it didn't. In his dream world, he would love to be able to drink "normally". Note that this is his definition of normally, not anyone else's - what HE means is that he would like to be able to drink a LOT, maybe half to two thirds of what he drinks now, but not have any ill effects, physically or socially - and, most important of all, to not lose control when he drinks.

He has no idea how this is going to happen because, every time he tries to stop or cut down, he gets miserable, something "crops up" and he "has" to go back to drinking a lot again. Or he "accidentally" drinks a lot one night and then it's impossible to get back on the regime.

The thought of cutting down or stopping permanently he would find offensive if it weren't so funny and implausible and he reacts violently to any suggestion that he do so, or manipulates the conversation away from it, either pointing out other people who drink as much or more than him or even pointing to your own drinking past. Alternatively, he will point to the last time he took a month (or a week, or a day) off to prove that he has no problem and can stop any time he wants. At least part of him genuinely believes what he is saying, even as another part of him knows it to be a crock of shit.

Sadly, what he wants doesn't exist, and never will. Sooner or later, something will happen to make him stop and think. It may be a near miss in the car (or even an accident); you may leave him; his children may ask a question that really hits home. Then he will confront fear properly - he will realise he needs to stop and instantly realise that he cannot. He may bury his head in the sand; or he may ask for help.

It is most important that you realise that you cannot CREATE this situation - you could leave him and it still wouldn't make a difference. Or you could just look at him and it reduces him to tears. There's no way of knowing. All you can do is look after number one (and your children), especially physically and materially, and - if you still love him - try to be there if and when he does "hit the wall".

Obviously, I've never met you - how does my "guess" about your husband sound?

[skinsl]

Do you love him?
Do you think he loves you?

[MIFLAW]

I have to disagree partly with traumaqueen - many many loving husbands and good fathers have made the same "choices" - and it is in no way helpful to say that "if he was willing or able to change things he would have by now" nor is it necessarily true - I have seen a man of 60 get better from chronic alcoholism with my own eyes.

She is, however, right to say that "He is NOT going to do it for you." As my old sponsor used to say, "the tears of my children never stopped me drinking." If and when he does stop, it will initially be an entirely selfish act. The good news is that, as a result, he may then become a much less selfish person and much nicer to be around.

In other words, yes, be realistic, and don't wait around for something that may never happen, but don't give up hope just yet either.

[thumbwitch]

I think your point about all the weight of the decision being on you is about right - he wants you to take the responsibility of ending it so he can be the victim. He isn't able to take responsibility himself - he has let you make the major decisions before - so he isn't likely to change now. for you, it sounds pretty horrible.

It sounds like he is happy with your current situation because it isn't really challenging him in any way - his life hasn't really changed. Your choice now - do you make the break, which WILL change his life and challenge him - or do you leave it as is, hoping against hope that he will at some point pull his head out of his drink-sodden arse?

Really though, it boils down to what YOU want - do you WANT to stay with him? If not, then decide to break up/leave and DO it.

[Flowertop]

Sorry to hijack as have no useful advice for NSHMMICT but hope that you can sort this out soon.
MIFLAW just have to say that I always read your responses (as a drinker but not had a drop since 31/12) and wonder in real life if you are a therapist - if not you should be. Your help is invaluable and hope that OP can get something from it.
X

[AnyFucker]

I remember you, OP

two great replies you have there from traumaqueen and MIFLAW (speaking from experience ?..you certainly have fantastic insight..)

I think your relationship is over

you cannot keep trying unilaterally...his primary relationship is with alcohol

all the other stuff, although very horrible and upsetting, are red herrings

I think you should post on the addiction threads

I am so sorry

[MIFLAW]

Thank you - well, I do regularly try to help recovering alcoholics by listening to them ...

Ha ha, my only qualification is being an ex-piss artist myself. What worked for me was AA but I'm well aware it's not the only way (as is AA itself) and really any method of "recovery" where someone stops drinking to excess and stops being an arsehole can only be a good thing, I would say - just because those methods didn't work for me, doesn't mean they won't work for others.

[AnyFucker]

oops, cross posted, those two weren't the only great replies

[MIFLAW]

Flowertop - forgot to say, well done you!

The only advice I would pass on (assuming you're not in AA yourself but that you have stopped drinking for reasons other than a January detox ...) would be to "keep it green" - in other words, however long you stop for, don't forget WHY you stopped and what drinking is REALLY like, not for the people in the Magner's adverts, but for YOU. Then, before you take a drink, ask yourself if you're happy to risk having it all back ...

[YouKnowNothingoftheCrunch]

It sounds like you cannot be in the relationship as it stands. You are hoping he will change, but he isn't. You want to save the relationship, but not as it is.

So here's the tough bit, you can't make him change. You cannot do this for him. You cannot make him better. Your choice is a simple one, the same choice I was faced with last year, the choice I refer to in my head as "The crappy choice". To stay or to go.

I went. Or rather I asked him to. Our situation was different (not alcohol related) but the results were similar.

And at some point in the past year my DH got it together. He realised what he was losing and fought for it.

We are now working together on rebuilding our relationship. I can see now that I could never do it on my own. I was bashing my head against a wall and it was all getting harder and harder.

When you're left with the crappy choice then I think that says a lot about how much he is investing in this relationship. To ask him to move out doesn't mean an end forever (although it might) but it does mean he will have to face up to his problems.

And either way, it is a relief when you don't have to carry their issues anymore.

And my DH used to do 'the agreeing to do something and then later saying it was all my idea and he wouldn't do it' all the time. It was horrible. I actually started to keep a diary so that I knew I wasn't going crazy!

[NotSureHowMuchMoreICanTake]

back now - thanks for the very thoughtful responses - will read them in more detail and mull them over some and come back later - have two kids off school illl now and need to spend some kwality time with them

thanks again - it all just feel SO hard right now

[Kiwinyc]

Its hard to see what you get out of the relationship, i do feel sad for you.

I think you can't rescue him and he won't change for you, sorry. It sounds like he's never taken responsibility for important life decisions and he's not about to start either until he makes that decision on his own.

I know you have children with him but what are they getting out of it - they are witnessing an unhappy and dysfunctional example of a relationship where two people live seperately, one is slowly destroying himself with alcohol and the other is miserable - ultimately do you want them to think this is an ok way for them to witness while growing up and then possibly repeat in their own relationships, because thats whats normal to them? Surely you and they deserve something healthier?

It might also be worth contacting Al Anon who provide support for families of alcoholics.

But i hope you find the strength and self esteem to look at your situation objectively and know that you and your children deserve better.

[NotSureHowMuchMoreICanTake]

have reread the messages now - thanks so much

Traumaqueen you are right - I absolutely cannot take another 20 years of this - I will be a total basket case

y'see I tell myself it's not so bad - he is actually a really nice guy, he is in good physical shape, if I let myself I could still fancy him (very much) BUT I feel very let down by him. I do feel (like ANYFUCKER says) his primary relationship is with alcohol, I really do. He says he just drinks because it makes him feel good. But then other times he'll admit he self-medicates with booze. Regardless, he usually says he can't imagine a future without booze. As MIFLAW so rightly put it ...
"
The thought of cutting down or stopping permanently he would find offensive if it weren't so funny and implausible" and he often does the thing of "point[ing] to the last time he took a month (or a week, or a day) off to prove that he has no problem and can stop any time he wants."

MIFLAW - you really seem to have a great insight into all of this. My husband is a very "functioning " (is that what its called?) alcoholic (although he absolutely refutes that term) - he doesn't lose control (although he gets grumpy and sulky and flounces off if I bring up anything he doesn't want to hear) and is quite convivial...to a point. At dinner parties he has been known to drink loads and then be found in the hosts bed fast asleep. Not normal is it? But he is absolutely NOT someone who hides a bottle of whiskey in the garden shed. His drinking is not furtive, he feels he has a right to drink as much as he likes and he doesn't see need to hide it. The reckoning of 100 units was from me, I watched what he was drinking over a week and put the details into the drink aware unit calculator thingy. That was at a time he was drinking maybe a bit more than usual but even so.

Youknownothingofthecrunch - I am glad to hear things are better for you now. I like your description - "the crappy choice" damn right! do you have kids? how did you explain it to them? It is that thing - I wish the relationship could work but I can't cope with it how it is. I see other people able to put up with stuff and wonder how they can while I can's? am I being totally selfish? am I just mad and imagining things? etc etc etc

do you know what will ultimately force things ? sheer boredom at having the same things going round and round my brain!

thumbwitch - it IS horrible. Feeling the weight of responsibility for myself and the two children is just hideous...and feeling that he just won't face up to anything...makes me red with anger at times...

Kiwinyc - I posted on the addiction thread before and was advised about al-anon - but I have reservations about it really - at this stage it's he who needs to face up to his alcoholism - I have done so. I want things to change. I know I am not responsible and I can't MAKE him change. I don't really want to start an al-anon dependency for myself. I don't want to define myself in terms of his addiction - does that make sense?

Skinsl - do I love him ? not sure. I like him and fancy him but I think love has taken a back seat to disappointment and resentment over the past number of years. Does he love me ? who knows...

anyway - I forced the issue last night - told him we HAD to talk. We got a babysitter and went out for dinner. He stuck to his non-drinking regime and it was so pleasant to share time with him. Normally when we go out for a meal he gets agitated when his drink isn't brought fast enough, or if the wine is running out before we are finished main course (invariably with him about) but last night there was none of that. It was relaxed and pleasant. I laid it on the line. He pussyfooted around a bit - he has still NEVER said he wants us to stay together or anything. He agreed that at the moment things need to go as follows: he arranges somewhere to move out to at end of month and does it, or else comes up with a separate plan to try to get things otherwise in hand - this needs to be in conjunction with the GP and be "official" and in hand not just him telling me what he plans "someday". If he decides he doesn't want to move out he needs to make me awareof that and of the things he is puttng in place and suggests as ways to work on our relationship. He needs to let me know by 22nd Jan 1) what his plans are and 2) where he is going if he is moving out

does that sound sensible or lily-livered? (oops, bad pun)

[Lemonylemon]

At least you've got somewhere in putting plans in place. It's a start. Good for you. It takes a lot of guts to lay things on the line....

[NotSureHowMuchMoreICanTake]

thanks lemonylemon (i think you posted on my last thread - remember your name)

update - he just phoned me at work to let me know he has made appt with my GP (the one who deals with alcohol and drug dependency issues and offered to try to help him) next monday

I am very pleased, though not feeling TOO hopeful yet

[AnyFucker]

sounding more positive

just make sure he follows through with actions and not just the words he thinks you want to hear

otherwise, in 6 months time you will be back to square one, but actually have lost more ground because you will have reinforced to him that you will continue to collude with his drink dependency

as I'm sure you are aware, you don't have to be hiding whisky bottles in the shed to be an alcoholic

good luck to you (and him too, he needs help...from professionals, not you)

[Anniegetyourgun]

Do you have any sanctions in place in case he does not meet the 22nd January deadline?

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

What are you both teaching your DDs about relationships here?. Better to be apart and happier than to be together and miserable like you are currently. Doubtless as well your children are all too aware that there are problems between the two of you.

You are ultimately not responsible for this man. What are you to him now, you're enabling by keeping all this held together.

What are you getting out of this relationship now?. You cannot rescue and or save someone who may not ultimately want to be saved. As his wife too you are the last person who can help him. You tell yourself its no so bad, that is denial within you as well and denial is a powerful force.

He has to want to help his own self, you cannot make him seek help if he does not want it. His primary relationship is with drink; everything and everyone else comes a distance second.

With alcoholism the whole family need treating, not just the alcoholic (who can often be in denial as to the whole extent of the problem anyway) and your man is a functioning alcoholic. You are so wrapped up in his alcoholism you cannot see the wood for the trees, you need help too. Why don't you want to start Al-anon for yourself, I wonder why you used the words "al-anon dependency".

What if he does not decide by January 22nd?.

Your last post was mainly about him, what about you?.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Words are cheap, he could well not attend next Monday's appointment.

[NotSureHowMuchMoreICanTake]

I know only too well how cheap words are - I told him in no uncertain terms that I don't believe any words from him anymore - that actions are now required.

I am prepared to give him this one last chance (I think) but if he doesn't go through with it, AND have a broader plan in terms of how we can work on the relationship and he can engage more with me and the family by 22nd then he is out by the end of the month - that's the sanction. We have some friends I will send him to if he hasn't pulled his finger out and sorted out a flat for himself.

I know there is a risk of going back to square one here, so I will be taking it very slowly, cautiously and seriously.

I know he has just made the appointment - he may not like what she has to say, indeed he may not even go at all. But it feels like a tiny step in the right direction...maybe...

Attilla - I used the words "al-anon dependency" a bit loosely perhaps...I just meant that I don't really want to pigeon-hole myself as the partner of an alcoholic...if he remains an active alcoholic I want to move on from him. But maybe I am assuming too much about al-anon. The other thing is I am already in weekly psychotherapy and just feel I can't expend anymore mental energy on this whole thing per week. It is already quite consuming. I guess maybe I think, rightly or wrongly, I don't have space for al-anon...am aware I might be totally wrong

what about me? well, for the first time last night, being out with him not drinking, I really enjoyed his company. Also yesterday morning, after a week of non-drinking, he was up and sorting things out with the car and stuff for kids school (DD2 was starting reception yesterday) before I even got out of bed. Then he was off to work on time without the usual panic, hassle, shouting and anxiety. I saw a glimpse of a different future, one I quite liked the look of.

hmmmm...

[AnyFucker]

oh dear, he behaves himself for 24 hours and you see a whole rosy new future....

and the cycle continues

OP, you are in serious denial, love, I am so sorry

look at your OP and then your latest post

how did you get from despair to blind optimism, because he didn't drink for one night and then went to work without a fuss ???

love, that's what happens in normal households every day of the week, without any ultimatums or "serious chats"

get real, and get yourself some targeted support eg. from Al Anon (btw I think you are just frightened of what you might hear....I totally understand that)

I will stop nagging you now, you obviously have to work through this at your own pace, but you have to let the scales fall from your eyes first...

[NotSureHowMuchMoreICanTake]

anyfucker you are right I guess. Its pathetic.

Maybe I should go to al-anon...

[YouKnowNothingoftheCrunch]

NotSure, in answer to your question I have 3 DCs. 11, 3 and 8 months.

One day I realised that the middle DC was acting strangely around DH, he was always a daddy's boy and suddenly he wouldn't go to him anymore. That was a real wake up call for me.

With the eldest I sat him down and explained it all to him. Obviously on a level that he understood. I said that DH's behaviour (maingly caused by depression, which had progressed to emotional abuse and was particularly bad after DH had been drinking) was caused by this illness he has called depression (but in your case you could just say he's not well). I told him that it makes dad behave oddly, it affects his memory and his mood and means he doesn't always respond the way he should; that dad still loves us all but he is finding it hard to show it; and that under no circumstances is this anybody's fault (even though it was, it wouldn't have helped DS to know that). By being able to see this problem as something external to everyone I think it gave DS something to "blame".

When I finally took him to one side to tell him that dad was going to move out for a while because he wasn't getting better at home, he was at first very upset, but also very supportive. He said we had to do what we could to help dad. And at that point DH held it together long enough to comfort his son and tell him it was the right thing to do.

Within a week of DH moving out there was a marked difference in their behaviour. DS1 started smiling and told me that it was actually a relief not to worry about how to behave all the time. DS2 relaxed too, and his behaviour (which was never bad, but was certainly affected) improved dramatically.

DH still saw the DCs every day but was not welcome in the house and I would simply hand them over at the door.

He now says that those few hours with the DCs were the only joy he had.

With hindsight I should have been more balanced with his access. I basically gave him all the available quality time in the evenings and one day at the weekend. It meant all the time I had with them was getting the things that needed doing done. And when DH went through the whole "getting worse before he got better" thing which can happen, he told me that this arrangement was fine and he could live like this. Whereas were we to have split properly he wouldn't have just had the good bits IYSWIM and the access would have been closer to 50/50 in all respects. I think I should have given him a better idea of what being single would be like.

Now I'm babbling

Don't feel embarrassed about grabbing hold of a good day. When we get used to days being rubbish our expectations get lower. And any little glimmer of hope has us jumping for joy.

Unless his behaviour is stable for months at a time (and in all honesty DH isn't there yet, but he is working towards it and I have some very firm boundaries in place)then he hasn't changed.

Sorry, that ended up really long!

The main thing is, that I hadn't noticed just how much my children had been affected until damage had been done. I talk openly to the oldest one and reassure the youngest one that his dad loves him and it's not his fault. DH has worked very hard on rebuilding his relationship with the DCs and the other day after reading DS2 his bedtime story DH came downstairs beaming. DS2 had kissed DH goodnight for the first time in a year. Which is so sad, and so hopeful.

[MIFLAW]

Dear OP

My "great insight" comes from being a recovering alcoholic myself (also male, BTW and also self-assessed at about the same number of units per week as your husband) - I, too, "functioned" and I almost never hid my drinking because, if I'd done that, I'd have had a problem, right? Except where I wasn't allowed to drink (e.g. lunch times in some jobs) I was generally extremely open about my drinking and much of it was done in pubs. It didn't make me any less of an alcoholic and, perhaps more important than definitions, it did little to reduce the "friendly fire" at those who tried to love and like me.

Al-Anon is not for everyone - my wife, for example (who has never seen me drink - I met her after I got sober) would rather die than attend that sort of thing, as would the girlfriend whose leaving me was part of the push that got me into AA in the first place. That said, I would say (and this goes for AA too) forget the labels and the theory and the "dependency" stuff - make your decision to go or not to go on whether you think it might be a help or comfort to you in terms of feeling better and happier, and also based on whether you have any better ideas. I have been in AA for 8 years and continuously sober for 7 of those and I am STILL waiting to have a better idea ...

Most alcoholics are very charming and thoughtful when they are not arseholed - they love being loved and are typically sensitive souls and don't like hurting those they love.

However, that should not blind you to the fact that, if forced to make a choice, the typical alcoholic would walk over your bleeding body to get to a bottle of brown ale.