tik tok

[daisymlaisy]

I have just wrote such a lengthy reply and just lost it just before I posted it, how annoying so this will probably be a bit blunt, as I haven't got time to go into detail all over again!

I take great offence in you saying that if I have only done a 3-day course at Unicef I am not allowed to call myself a bf counsellor( sorry this is one word, I have always had a mental block on how to spell it, even though I use it lots, and its my job - its really frustrating!) as you said in one reply "I am not a professional but a volunteer" so does this mean you have had no training as such? as in the next reply you say " I am a Nct bf counsellor" So how come you are allowed to call yourself but I am not????

My training is as follows I am a qualified nursery nurse, Nurse, and did the 3-day Unicef breastfeeding course, which is one of the most respected in the country.

I have worked a as a maternity nurse for 9 years , this is where I have had huge amounts of experiance and it is here where I have usually found that feeding more regularly than 2 hourly after the age of 3-4 weeks and if the mother has a well established milk supply can be helped, and many mothers if they are honest will say they are allowing their baby to snack when they want, rather than encouraging proper full feeds. I have a very long testimonial record for mothers who when I went to see them they were feeding very regularly as in every 30 mins -1hour thinking thats what they should be doing. However once I had explained to them to look out for other sign for example crying cause they are tired etc and obviously making sure that there are no problems of tongue tie, poor milk supply, over milk supply etc , we could encourage the baby to demand feed 2/3hourly instead. I for one who bf my own daughter til she was 7 months,if I was feeding her every 30 mins -an hour would of welcomed someone to tell me this needn't be the case. So I still stand by the fact that if the baby is over 3-4 weeks old and the mother has a GOOD milk supply 2 hourly feeds should easily be maintainable, and it is quite often mis-guided information why the mother is allowing the baby to snack every 30mins, or poor attachment, milk supply etc could be a reason for it. however it in most cases can be successfully turned around to frequent feeds every 2-3 hours.

To finish my qualifications- I have worked as a nurse on a neonatal ward for 2 years, here I did see the extremes where babies are being encouraged to feed every 30 mins-1hour to help with the mothers milk supply.

I have been practicing as a bf councellor for 2 years now.

I do feel like i have been interogated by you, and will not be posting on here any more, you have made that impossible for me anyway by tarnishing my name. So keep up the good work helping all those mothers out there and lets hope you never word anything wrong. Of course I wouldn't do this in real life, it was one of the very few times I had been on here, and I was just writing facts,and my opinions wrongly not thinking about emotional ,sleep deprived mothers who may have read it, how it was most certainly not meant. I hope to have learnt by this mistake, and think more when I am writing.

If you feel like you need to justify yourself to me , like I did to you, please do not worry, if you want to call yourself a bf counsellor, reading your threads you sound more than capable to do this. Though please do not doubt other professionals. We are all going to have slightly different views depending on our experiances and qualifications and training, certainly doesn't need one to attack another, this most certainly would put the fear of god, into already confused new mothers, who feel they don't know who to trust.

[DizzyBint]

oh dear.

i've read the other thread that this relates to, and also the other one about feeding twice a day.

look, tiktok is well respected on here. the advice you have given in those two threads was questioned by a number of posters, not just tiktok.

tiktok already said that 3 days training isn't sufficient..UNLESS it was an add on to other professional qualifications, which now you are saying is the case.

anyway, you can tell me to shut up if you like, but i'm one of many who've found tiktok's posts extremely helpful and i don't like to see her shot down.

[LIZS]

Agree with dizzybint. If you suddenly start posting and offer advice while making claims to a professional status you have to be prepared to be challenged. There are reasons for MN memebers to be a little sceptical. You probably won't be aware of a previous instance of a MN poster having established him/herself as having status in the legal profession which later proved unfounded (after some real lawyer members did some sniffing around) but in the meantime had given suspect advice in an authorative manner to other unsuspecting posters.

When people are making real life decisions based upon whatever advice they can find,I feel it needs to be clear what background that advice is based upon. Sorry if that scrutiny has caused offence. However I think Tiktok was simply voicing the questions which others of us may have had but the repsosnes to which we would otherwise be unable to validate.

[tiktok]

daisymlaisy, I made it very clear I was not attacking you. I invited you to fill in the gaps in my knowledge about you, and anything I put to you were questions, not attacks or accusations.

Unlike you, I have been courteous at all times - re-read all my posts and none of them have been defensive, aggressive or angry like yours. If I have hit a nerve with you, then it's been inadvertant - I stressed at all times I accepted your sincerity and your genuiness and the fact you clearly had good knowledge about breastfeeding. It is not my fault I was not aware of your previous experience - I asked (politely) about it, and it took until now for you to share it.

I do not call myself 'professional' because I am not paid for what I do. However, you will be aware that NCT breastfeeding counsellors can indeed call themselves such because this is their precise qualification (after extensive training).

The 3-day Unicef course (a respected and excellent course, I agree) does not give this qualification, and because there is no legal 'power' attached to the name (unlike, say, 'doctor' or 'midwife'), anyone can call themselves a 'breastfeeding counsellor'....but I do think it is confusing for mothers if people use the term when they don't have the qualification. I am surprised you don't seem to agree with this. I mean, you say you are a maternity nurse - again, a term which anyone can use because it is not protected. I expect you would agree that if I started to call myself a maternity nurse (for which I have zero experience or training, bar the stuff I have picked up caring for my own children ) it could be confusing for mothers who might assume I have the same background as you.

I respectfully pointed out that when you said you worked as a breastfeeding counsellor 'for Unicef' this was a new idea for me, and I asked you about it - politely.

It later emerged that you don't work 'for Unicef' but as a self-employed person, and that is fine - I have nothing against that as long as 'the customers' (including people on Mumsnet) are aware that this is the case!

I sympathise with your problems getting the wording right - this is a skill that comes with practice and I don't think anyone ever gets it right all the time. Getting the message across on a talkboard so it a) helps the original poster with her situation b) doesn't mislead other people who may be reading it and trying to apply it to their own, possibly different, situation c) reflects current understanding of breastfeeding physiology in an unerstandable way....well, it's a challenge.

But if you stick around and post with care and thoughtfulness, and courtesy, even to the people who may feel you have got it a bit wrong (and I was far from the only one!) it will get easier.

I hope you continue to post - one of the strengths of mumsnet is that there are several regular posters who have an interest in supporting breastfeeding, and the more the merrier, say I!

[tiktok]

Liz and dizzy - thanks.
I didn't know about the legal imposter!

[NotQuiteCockney]

tiktok - the legal imposter was Judge Flounce, aka Wig and Robe. Big fuss a few years back, I'm sure you must have noticed?

daisymlaisy, the advice you've given has been quite strict, and conflicted with what I know, and what I've read on Kellymom. Oh, and what my (BFN) breastfeeding counsellor mate says.

tiktok, is the NCT training as intensive as the BFN one? It seems to take ages and ages!

[nothercules]

A 3 day course? Gosh, no offence but in my book that doesn't make you a counsellor. I looked in to becoming one but the training was too long....

And the trouble with the rest of your experience is that lots of people including myself have been given incorrect and damaging information by health professionals. The general advice is to speak to someone who has had long and extensive training as a counsellor rather than a 3 day course.

That's not to say of course your input isnt welcome but you do have to expect to be questionned if you give information that conflicts with what other people know to be accurate.

[tiktok]

NCT breastfeeding counsellors train, on average, for about 3 years, and I think the other vol orgs probably have a similar length. It's part time though - monthly small-group tutorials, about 16 written assignments, 2 full weekends away and other stuff like observing classes, doing classes and doing presentations.

The performance of a student is carefully assessed throughout and I think this is one of the key elements that distinguishes it from short training courses (as well as the length and breadth). When someone qualifies, she has to re-register every year by showing evidence of further training and keeping up to date; all bfcs work under supervision in that they have a superviser. NCT can de-register bfcs who do not fulfil the requirements, and I think all the other vol orgs have a similar system. This is what concerns me about 'freelances' - people unattached to any organisation or quality control, but who still call themselves breastfeeding counsellors. Who is monitoring them, and how can their clients know they are practising safely? They may be absolutely top notch, fantastic and brilliant...but then again, maybe they are not.

Generally speaking, a short course, like the Unicef one, well-respected as it is, cannot assess someone's ability to go out into the real world using counselling skills as well as breastfeeding knowledge.

The 3-day 'lactation management' (that's its name) Unicef course is aimed at practising health professionals such as midwives, and it does a pretty good job of filling in gaps in knowledge about how breastfeeding works; if every midwife did it, and had her work supervised and supported thereafter so she was able to apply this knowledge, then I think bf support in the UK would improve.

But this course cannot do everything, and it cannot equip someone for years and years, either - any more than just doing the NCT (or BfN) course would be all anyone needed forever.

Hope this answers your question, NQC.

[hunkermunker]

I had a midwife tell me that I was only to offer one breast per feed ever - she'd done this Unicef course too...

Daisy, please don't be defensive. Tiktok has been nothing but polite to you on here.

[tiktok]

hunker - I have heard of midwives coming out of this course (and others) saying precisely this, but it apparently is not what the course teaches (I asked someone about this)....this is my point about assessing someone's knowledge and giving on-going supervision and training. You can pick up the glitches better!

Some time ago, an NCT bfc (since moved on) was telling mothers in classes they could not eat soft unpasteurised cheese when bf - quite wrong She was put right by her tutor and supervisor.

This is why I always urge people who have had a bad experience with an NCT counsellor or other organisation to get in touch so it can be sorted.

[FrostyTheSnowMarsLady]

So tiktok.. which courses do you recommend? I was looking at the UNICEF one as it would be handy to have. Am also looking at the more indepth ABM.

[DizzyBint]

tiktok- how 'available' do you have to be do be a bfc? are you sort of on call on set days and nights but can be unavailable at all other times ie with paid work? how do you do it? fair enough if you don't want to give too much personal info out though. i just have in mind it's something i'd love to do at some point. does it take up a lot of your time?

[NotQuiteCockney]

tiktok, I think that sounds a fair bit like the BFN arrangement. (Not surprising, given, I think, that BFN is a splinter group from the NCT.)

Marsy, if you want to be a BFC, it makes sense to join whatever network is active local to you, I guess?

The BFCs I know, work on call for the hotline, when they want. They also teach breastfeeding classes (ahem, attached to NCT antenatal classes, even though they're all BFN bods here).

[tiktok]

An NCT bfc has to do the bf element of the NCT antenatal class (I think there is a min. no she has to do each year but I am not sure about that), and she has to either work for the NCT breastfeeding line or have her personal phone no. 'out there' - many bfcs do both.

There's a massive variation in the hours of work a bfc does, but there is again a minimum no. of calls she has to deal with (I think it is as low as 10 a year or something like that). Many do far, far more than this, of course.

Some bfcs choose to work on the breastfeeding line at set times only, and that's fine.

There are 4 vol orgs which train counsellors or equivalents, and BfN and ABM do a lower qual called something like mother supporter. You can also train with a La Leche League programme to be a 'peer counsellor', but this is not the same as being a breastfeeding counsellor or fully-qualified LLL leader (counsellor equivalent). There are many local peer supporter programmes which (like the LLL programme) train people over about 10-12 sessions to offer listening, support, friendship and some bf knowledge. Good peer supporter programmes should have some on-going support and supervision and training but actually, many don't.

It's all very confusing to mothers and though we gain diversity, it's not surprising that mothers and healthcare professionals don't realise there is a difference between someone who has done the full training with a vol. org and someone who has done (for example) peer supporter training.

[DizzyBint]

yes i think i've seen peer counsellor courses run by sure start, called something daft like bosom buddies?! that was something like 10 hours training and you had to have breastfed for at least 6 months.

[tiktok]

There are some great names for peer supporter programmes

I think that while they are variable in quality, in principle they are a good thing - not everyone wants to take forever to train to be a breastfeeding counsellor but they have enthusiasm, experience and a friendly personality and a love of breastfeeding.....so lets get 'em trained to make breastfeeding normal in their communities, and to give non-judgemental support to other mothers.

NCT is developing a peer support programme, which will add another variation to it all

[Highlander]

for me a BFC is someone who has completed long-term training, is regularly reassessed etc - in other words is a professional.

Someone who has completed a 3 day course surely should not be allowed to call themsleves a BFC; a title of assistant better reflects their basic training.

As a mum, I would feel really angry if someone was pretending to be a BFC, yet only possessed basic training. I read Daisy's first post and was gobsmacked at how out of field it was.

[tiktok]

I think it will be hard for daisy to come back here and comment, though I hope she does. She is well-informed about breastfeeding but maybe not as well as she thought she was....she wasn't able to handle the stuff about exclusive breastfeeding or frequency of feeds very well, but hey....that is pretty advanced stuff on a technical level, and even more so when you take into account the counselling aspect.

She got into a bit of a pickle, and had to then unpick what she said and re-explain it and jiggle it about a bit, all signs of someone having bitten off more than they could chew, and none of it very comfortable as an experience.

She focussed her discomfort on me, as I was the first person (though not the only one by any means) to cough very politely and ask about her background! Good job I don't take offence

Daisy, I hope you're reading this and you are not as cross and hurt as you were earlier today. I suppose I will be happy if you stop calling yourself a breastfeeding counsellor - so I am easily satisfied

I tell you what: I promise never to call myself a maternity nurse (because even though I have bags of experience in babycare, I have no qualification in it, despite the fact it would not be illegal for me to call myself it) if you stop calling yourself a breastfeeding counsellor.

Deal?

I mean all of this to be taken with good humour - I know you were a bit hurt and I want you to feel better.

I hope you'll post.

[daisymlaisy]

I have come back as I feel the need to defend UNICEF which is a fantastic course and like you say Tik tok if every midwife, health professional who works with breastfeeding babies did this course or one like it, bf support in the uk would improve.

I can call myself a maternity nurse as its a job title, that distinguishes myself from a nanny and obviously in the past I worked for a maternity nurse agengy. You can only class yourself as a maternity nurse if you have Nursery nursing qualification first, which I do have, with the NNEB you csn then automatically become a maternity nurse with an agency, I should imagine you have to have experiance with newborns also, I had plenty do didn't really question it. It is bizare that with the NNEB you can also become a Maternity nurse, but who am I to disagree or argue this I would have denied myself out of a very successful 9 years in childcare.

Like you say Tik Tok Breastfeeding counsellor is the same, doing a 3 day intensive course such as the UNICEF one and you can go out and be a breastfeeding counsellor and it is one of those jobs that you learn more everyday and keep on learning all the time.
I am not attacking you now by saying this, however you still haven't answered my question to you about what training you have had as you also call yourself a bf counsellor. Maybe you are more qualified than myself to do that.

I am very sorry if I have offended anyone on here by calling myself a bf counsellor, however it is certainly not through fraudulent means, through doing the course I believed I could call myself one and work as one.
We were even told on the course that this was the case, and I believe it to be true, however people on the course were already medical professionals eg midwives, NCT counsellors ( yes there were 2 of these) and Neonatal nurses myself, so I suppose we have already trained for atleast 3 years in the medical field. My manager on the Neonatal ward even paid for my course, so I could specailize in the breastfeeding area.

To defend the course, it is so thorough, its fantastic, and taught by real gurus in the breastfeeding world, you come away with a huge folder , full of everything you have learnt so you have constant reference. You also have to complete clinical practices.

I believe I have the tools and the knowledge to help mothers who want to breastfeed successfully, and have proven this with being high demand in my area, through word of mouth only.

I have copy and pasted this from the unicef site:
Course in breastfeeding management-
Midwives, health visitors, neonatal nurses and others who have direct responsibility for overall care delivery to breastfeeding mothers and /or babies need a course which equips them with not only basic knowledge and skills in breastfeeding but an understanding of the conditions which may impact on a mother of baby's ability to breastfeed and how these should be prevented or managed. The course in Breastfeeding Management can provide this extra depth of knowledge.

I will keep on practising as a breastfeeding counsellor ( and try and spell it correctly!) as it is my job title, and I am well respected within the community to do this. I am not telling people the wrong facts only the truth and I try and support mothers the best I can.

Thank you for all your advice, I have learnt that it is better/easier to advise face to face, and on here it is very difficult.

[hunkermunker]

Daisy, you really equate a three-day course with the NCT bfc training course?!

You aren't a bfc in the sense that I or many other MNers know it.

[NotQuiteCockney]

Three years in the medical field is a good thing, but it's not actually equivalent to a three-year training course specifically on breastfeeding, is it.

[hunkermunker]

Not on the advice I've received from and heard given by medically trained people, no, NQC!

You remember "but...they bite!" when I told the hospital GP I was still bfeeding DS1 at 12mo?!

And the classic "I didn't know you could hand express colostrum" from the paed who came to discharge DS2.

[daisymlaisy]

hunkermunker - no I am not saying that, the breastfeeding counsellor course that the Nct does is very long and intense and obviously the most superior of all the breastfeeding counselling courses.

Although take the Abm breastfeeding counselling course consists of just 8 modules and can be done over a year, however if you worked 12 hour days your could probably complete in a week! It has the same content as the UNICEF course has, apart from it is home study, no hand on clinical practices which I had to do within my neonatal course, and the ABM is free, whereas the UNICEF one is 280 pounds, so which of these is best?

The ABM course says it qualifies you as a breastfeeding counsellor, even though there is no written/practical work and totally homebased.

The unicef course with your pre-medical training also I'm presuming qualifies you as a breastfeeding counsellor ( I am a nurse)most certainly the indepthness of the course thoroughly equips you.

So yes the question is what makes you a breastfeeding counsellor?

I would say completed a well known credited course, and bags of on the job experiance that you gain along the way.

[tiktok]

I am glad you have come back, daisy

I don't understand why you say I have not answered your question about my training. I wrote in some detail about the training NCT bfcs get in my post of 12.01 today.

I don't think you are reading my posts properly. Anyone can call themselves a maternity nurse. It is not a protected title - yes, there are ways to qualify as a maternity nurse, and yes, you can call yourself one after qualifying as a nursery nurse, and no doubt reputable agencies insist on a formal qualification. But I could set myself up tomorrow as a maternity nurse and no one could stop me (I might have to have a CRB check, that's all). This is not like 'midwife' or 'doctor' which are legally protected titles, and if I styled myself by either term, I would be breaking the law.

Breastfeeding counsellor is the same - not protected as a title, but generally accepted as designating someone who has been through an extensive training course on offer by (for example) NCT.

So I don't think you are being consciously fraudulent, believe me, but simply misguided and confused....and in the process you are inadvertently misleading and confusing others. I mean, I was confused and misled, for a start

NCT counsellors do sometimes go on that 3-day course as a top up for their skills and a reminder, and also to see what other agencies offer by way of training. I hope you will believe me that NCT training is a lot deeper in terms of self-development and counselling skills, and a lot wider in terms of supporting breastfeeding at all ages from babyhood to childhood. What we don't cover is the clinical - eg sorting out feeding for very prem or sick babies - because our focus is not medical. But one couldn't do that in a 3-day course either.

But I'm not here to assess or judge 'quality'. Breastfeeding counselling is fundamentally different from what you have done - not necessarily better or worse. People with no training whatsoever have been fab supporters of breastfeeding on mumsnet, and many of the common questions are really well-handled by people whose only experience has been their own.

But we all have to know what our boundaries are. Hope you agree.

How do people get in touch with you, daisy? Is it just word of mouth?

[daisymlaisy]

completing ( sorry )

Again I did not say that 3 years in the medical business is equivalent to 3 years nct breastfeeding course

Words keep being put into my mouth, its not nice being a newbie on here, I won't be recommending to my friends!!(joke)

[DizzyBint]

'The unicef course with your pre-medical training also I'm presuming qualifies you as a breastfeeding counsellor ( I am a nurse)most certainly the indepthness of the course thoroughly equips you.'

not sure about that though really. is what you did the 'lactation management' course that tiktok described? does it involve a counselling element ie how to relate to people as a counsellor? i would expect a midwife (for example) with 'lactation management' training to treat me in a different way from a 'breast feeding counsellor' who has done a 3 year course.