the paddling pool

[Alameda]

get your flotation aids here (don't look at me though, I genuinely can't swim)

[JugglingWithTangentialOranges]

OK, Thanks Alameda

So, just wondering after last thread the other night, what would make someone a radfem rather than a feminist ?

Do radfems think you can be a feminist without taking things to a deeper level ?

[FrothyDragon]

Pffft. I'm sticking to the shallow end. I'd make a useless merperson. I genuinely sink.

[MorrisZapp]

I'm in for a plodge.

[Alameda]

I don't know, surely a radfem is a feminist, one with an enviable purity of purpose?

[JugglingWithTangentialOranges]

Do you think a radfem has a stronger sense of fighting male oppression, whereas perhaps a feminist would think more of standing up for women's rights as a focus ? ( Or something like that )

[JugglingWithTangentialOranges]

X Post with Hothead BTW

• Thanks Hothead

[Lovecat]

Thanks Alameda :)

I do lean towards what's considered Radical Feminism (in Ayerobot's quiz I came out 100% Rad, 66% Socialist, 66% Womanist) but I'm actually perturbed that some of what seems fairly obvious to me (ie porn & prostitution are not good things for women as a whole, no matter that a handful of women within those areas may benefit from it/choose to do it) is considered radical.

I think that the media (which has always been a boy's club - imho Rebekah Wade simply played by the men-made rules and became blokier than thou) has a lot to answer for on that one. I'm very slowly making my way through Backlash and it's made me think about why the gains that appeared to have been made in the early 80's have been exchanged/eroded to the current 'feminists are hairy manhaters' trope and if you are humourless and uptight if you disagree with the increased sexualisation of society and the objectification of women therein.

To me that's not radical and it saddens me that some people think it is. What to do about it, though... apart from challenge it when it arises.

[solidgoldbrass]

I think it's worth bearing in mind that having 'pure' politics doesn't necessarily stop a person from being an arsehole and a bully. (Oh, and before anyone starts, I am NOT having sly digs at any MNers or anyone who posts on this board. I am in fact thinking of a few individuals I have encountered in RL in the past. Who would interrupt a discussion on reproductive rights to have a pop at someone who was wearing nail varnish or a low-cut shirt.)

[ComradeJing]

SGB really? That's really nasty and pointless. (them, not you)

I'm NOT a well read feminist but my understanding is that liberal feminism seeks to better women's position in (patriarchal) society but radfeminism seeks to remove the patriarchy.

I think that the whole "choice" argument has done some nasty work to feminism and the feminist cause.

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Radical feminism is not just a more extreme form of feminism. Radical in thsi context means to get to the root of. Of course there are disagreements amongst radical feminist, but there are commonalities that you have to agree with to call yourself a radical feminist.

1. That patriarchy oppresses women and that the solution is to overthrow patriarchy.
   
2. That Het relationships are an important part of day-to-day oppression of Het women
   
3. Being anti porn and anti prostitution as a result of recognising that these are basically society sanctioned abuse of women
   
4. That sex is a biological fact that can not be changed
   
5. That gender is socially constructed - at a simplest level - girls are brought up to like pink and want to be princesses and boys to be noisy and fight. And that gender controls and sets limits on what we all do and thus is not a good thing. RadFems thus want to get rid of gender.
   
6. That you analyse overall behaviour e.g. women being involved in prostitution, but you don't criticise individual women for this.
   
7. That PIV sex places women at harm through greater risk of STD's and unwanted pregnancy and that PIV is a male centric form of sex.
   
8. That you are pro women. Yes men have negative things happen to them, but rafeminism is about women.
   
9. That you don't just talk about radfeminism but that you do things in your real life to help girls and women - campaigning, volunteering, etc.
   

I think i have covered everything. But if I have left anything out please, someone else add it. But as you can see it is much more complicated than just fighting the patriarchy. I know a lot of my points could do with a whole essay to explain them - don't worry I am not going to type one. But I will drop in a few links in another post.

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

A few links below about radical feminism. Both links take you to a certain part of the blog that I thought might be helpful, but if you are interested, there is a lot more information on both blogs on other pages. I don't think this thread is about having a debate. But happy to answer any questions anyone might have.

factcheckme.wordpress.com/radfem-101/
noanodyne.com/pro-faab-womens-lib/

[Frakiosaurus]

See I don't even know if I'm a feminist? I might be an equalist? Or maybe at the moment a liberal feminist? But I don't understand what 'the patriarchy' is for starters. Is it a way of describing male-centric society as it is?

And why does being a radical feminist exclude being, say, anti-DV and recognising it can happen to men and women? Please don't jump on me for that, last time I asked I got mocked for being concerned about the poor menz.

See how I drown in an inch of water....

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Frak its fine. I think the OP has started this thread so people can ask questions.

The patriarchy is a short hand term for describing the way society oppresses women and gives a higher status to men. Through the law, institutions, government, culture, etc. So yes probably the same as what you mean by male centric.

Yes some men do suffer from DV. Although DV that leads to serious injuries, pate, death etc is almost always suffered by women. But the key point is that feminism is about focussing on the needs of women.

Individual men suffer from various crap situations. But under the patriarchy men get their needs looked at and cared about more already.

I think of it as going into a hall with an equal number of men and women. Some men are talking and men and women are listening to them. There are a few men struggling and some women are helping them. In a corner of the room are women who nobody is talking to. A few women are struggling, nobody is helping them. Feminism is about listening to and helping those women and girls that nobody is helping and nobody cares about.

That is why feminism - and I am talking about all kinds now - has prioritised working with women who have been raped, suffered DV, been sexually abused, etc. These area ll issues that are caused directly by the patriarchy and that most people didn't really care about until feminists started campaigning and setting up projects to support women.

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

pate? I meant rape. Sorry terrible typing

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Another link that gives an online list of lots of feminist resources including downloadable books for free.

hagocrat.wordpress.com/resources/

[Lovecat]

Thanks, Eats, those are really good posts. Clarifies a lot of things. :)

[JugglingWithTangentialOranges]

Yeh, thanks for all this Eats - it's very interesting.

I admit I wasn't that confident either about what was meant by "patriarchy"Frak, or more of a challenge, how to go about changing it.

But numbers 2-8 in your list Eatsseem pretty straight-forward - I think I agree with all of those, or am beginning to. Just leaves number 9 - doing something about it all - I think I have some work to do on that one - but I'm looking forward to it Would love to go on a march with my daughter, and meet up with other women more often eg. at a local group.

How do I find out what's on in my area. Google ?

Anyway, that's why a paddling pool seems good - a place to ask some of the first questions on what could be a new journey for some ?

Another question though - doesn't re-negotiating sex with your partner to concentrate less on PIV create a few challenges in relationships ?
I guess individual radfems come to different conclusions and outcomes with that one !

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

I used google to find out what was going on in my area. I don't think ALL radfems actually do number 9, i.e. do something about it. But most radfems think you should do.

In terms of PIV the idea is that you need to understand the analysis of it and why it is problematic, what you do with that analysis is up to you.

Some radfems become lesbians, some choose not to be in a relationship at all, some decide not to do piv anymore and some carry on as before. It is ultimately up to you and something personally you need to think about and decide what you do. I can imagine piv and not engaging in it, would be a problem in some relationships.

Beachcomber is a radfem, is married, shaves her legs and wears make up. She understands and agrees with the RadFem analysis around all of these, but still decides to do these. So it really is an individual decision.

[JugglingWithTangentialOranges]

Any books that analyse the issues around PIV from a radfem perspective - that you'd recommend ? This is a bit of a new idea to me - but makes sense that it's all worth thinking about.

I haven't shaved my legs except to go to rather un-radfem weddings for years, nor worn make-up since I was a teenager.

So, I'm half way there already