SS challenges our plans regarding "flexible visiting arrangements" - please help

[Petal02]

I?d really like your thoughts/advice on the events of the last 48 hrs.

It was all going really well; SS came to us on Weds for his midweek night, and was then back for the weekend, but we?ve been sensible and decided to pick him up on Sat morning, take him home at 6pm on Sunday, as a ?weekend? is Saturday/Sunday to most people. Everyone seemed relaxed, and yesterday I commented to DH that I was going to sit down with SS and the calendar, and work out some visiting dates for the next two weeks. DH was fine about it.

I proposed dates which basically meant alternate weekends plus a midweek night, although the midweek night was a Tues instead of a Weds on one occasion, and also weekends now run from Sat to Sun, rather than Thurs to Sun (we used to class Thurs as the midweek night if it was an access weekend). I thought SS would be happy with this, as it didn?t constitute any less access, just ?little and often? rather than the Thurs-Sun marathons.

But SS kept reiterating he wanted to go back to the rota, and couldn?t see any reason why we should be flexible. I responded that flexibility was the best way forward, given he?s now left school (he left on Friday ? although he?s likely to go to 6th form in Sept). It was a calm conversation, no raised voices, however we didn?t reach agreement. So SS seeks out DH, and tells him he?s not happy. DH tells SS he?ll think about it. I speak to DH, DH confirms SS is not happy, and promises to speak to him about it. I ask DH if he?s going to back down, DH says no, but that it needs to be handled delicately.

I then go out for an hour, knowing that discussions will take place in my absence. I get home to find there?s a definite atmosphere. So DH takes SS back home at 6pm and when he got back I asked him what happened. He said he hadn?t backed down (phew), and has told SS to ?give flexibility a go? and that after a few months if SS still isn?t happy, we can talk about it again ??.. fair enough, but I could tell DH was upset. He went on to say that SS hates change, that he?d had the rug pulled from under him when his parents split up, and that we need to tread very carefully. I replied carefully (not raising my voice) and said that whilst I took DH?s comments on board, we?re not creating huge changes for SS (it?s not like there?s a new school, new house, new baby to contend with), its only changing days, not reducing time. Also, (as I keep saying) SS is nearly 17, and he?s just left school. Surely he shouldn?t be quite so fragile? And, it?s 7 years since DH split with his ex ? just how long is DH supposed to continue with guilt parenting and compensatory behaviour??????

DH did concede that maybe he should make more efforts to promote flexibly by suggesting ad-hoc golf/pizza etc outside of planned visits. I?m fully in favour of this, it would bring about a more ?grown up? relationship with SS/DH, rather than the present childlike situation.

So whilst DH, to his credit, stood firm when challenged, it?s made me realise how shaky all this is. DH actually has quite similar views to me, regarding how things should be with someone of SS's age, but it?s clear that the execution of these plans, and the fear of upsetting SS, really troubles him.

Thoughts please.

Does it make any difference if you revert back to the original arrangements if he feels more comfortable with it?

Pink ? the present arrangements have been in place for 7 years; life has changed for all those involved, and yet the access rota has stayed fixed in stone.

SS desperately needs to be more independent, to think for himself a little, make decisions on how he wants to spend his time, rather than accepting being shuttled between two houses as per the rota.

We have many occasions where DH has to cut short his working day to collect SS from his mothers; drive him to our empty house, and then return to work ? just because the rota prescribes the he should be collected at a set time/day. And now SS has left school, what?s the point in bringing him to an empty house so he can stare at the walls all day, isn?t it better to collect him when he can spend time with his Dad?

We fully expected that by now, SS would have some sort of life for himself, ie friends/sport etc, and that this would naturally break the access pattern. But no. SS elects not to leave the house unless he?s going to school, and I suspect he uses the rota as an excuse not to participate in anything extra-curricular (we live a fair distance from the ex).

Also, we?ve very keen that SS will get a job over the summer, or if he doesn?t go on to sixth form, then he?ll have to do something with his time (surely????) and there?s no sort of job that will fit around the access rota. SS has often said that if he does go out to work, he wouldn?t want a job that compromised the rota, and that?s insane.

Thankfully DH is also of the opinion that SS needs to begin to integrate into real life, and his views on visiting arrangements are similar to mine ? HOWEVER ?? whilst DH is keen to have a more age-appropriate set-up, he?s terrified of upsetting DH, and my fear is that we could find ourselves having to live by an access rota when SS is 20/25/30 if we?re not careful.

I should add that DH joined the armed forces when he was SS?s age, do you think his Sgt Major would have arranged basic training around an access rota ??????????

Ah i feel for u Petal I've seen a few of your other posts. I'm expecting my first DD next week and was told by MIL this weekend that we've got DSS the weekend im due so hopefully she'll come early as not to upset access! I mean really i'll just get on the phone and order a curry now!

I think maybe if your DH initiates (fairly soon) the going for a pizza etc with DSS he might start to feel more comfortable with the change in access and come to realise for himself without you telling him that you're not trying to reduce his access. This also allows him his one-on-one time with his dad and allows you maybe an evening a week to have some me time. I'm glad your DH stuck to his guns and agrees with you. Maybe DSS is just trying it on if ur DH has caved before in the past when he has questioned the new flexible arrangments. As you say he's quite young for his age so i'm sure it will get better with time just stick to it!

Good luck :)

Thanks for your support Rhi.

Good luck with the delivery of your new baby - did you not consider the access rota whilst conceiving your baby??????!!!

Thanks petal - Silly me when in the 'moment' i should have said to DH hang on a sec -pulls out diary- Not tonight darling in 9 months time we've got DSS the weekend i'd be due. Goodnight! haha honestly i don't know what planet she lives on!

However what neither MIL or DH know is that i'm going to broach that subject with him later regarding possibly not (god forbid!) having DSS for the whole W/e as if i go into labour it's a 3 hour round trip for DH to take DSS home (MIL lives that way too so no one in our area to take him). I'm going to suggest Dh goes and takes DSS out for the day that way he's only an hour and a half away if things kick off! wish me luck! u never know she might have arrived by then however i still think i'd rather he just went for the day just this once!.

I often think that step kids seem to be babied way too much by their fathers and grandparents i don't think it does them any favours. If two people were together and had a child and went on to have another one no one would bat an eyelid. Same as in ur case. The child of 'together' parents would more than likely finish school and have to go to 6th form or get a job. If for example they had a set arrangement on a day that they were required to work i'm sure the parents would say well thats life you'll have to try and re-schedule you can't turn down a job because its not convenient enough. It's not real life and i don't like the way it's panderd to. I understand that step kids do sometimes have a rough time but it can't be used constantly as an excuse for bad or unnacceptable behaviour.

RhiRhi ? there are some great threads on this forum, about ladies who are expecting babies on access weekends. Advice ranges from ?insist your due-date is kept stepchild-free? to ?why not let the step child witness the entire birth to ensure they don?t feel traumatised/left out ?????

I agree that some stepchildren are babied far too much (my DH even admits that he does this) but sadly it?s the stepchild that suffers the most detriment because of this. They become almost ?institutionalised? by the access arrangements.

However I am VERY relieved that DH is backing me up, albeit rather fearfully. All this would be a non-starter otherwise. I?m aware I also need to tread very carefully; DH is as defensive as SS is fragile !!!

RhiRhi ? there are some great threads on this forum, about ladies who are expecting babies on access weekends. Advice ranges from ?insist your due-date is kept stepchild-free? to ?why not let the step child witness the entire birth to ensure they don?t feel traumatised/left out ?????

I agree that some stepchildren are babied far too much (my DH even admits that he does this) but sadly it?s the stepchild that suffers the most detriment because of this. They become almost ?institutionalised? by the access arrangements.

However I am VERY relieved that DH is backing me up, albeit rather fearfully. All this would be a non-starter otherwise. I?m aware I also need to tread very carefully; DH is as defensive as SS is fragile !!!

I don't know the full story but what occurred to me is that on one hand you are saying your SS needs to grow up a bit, and on the other hand it seems like you are not consulting him in decisions made about his life, just telling him what's going to happen. DOes he have SN or MH issues ie needs a rigid structure?

if your access weekends now run Sat morn-Sun evening, with one midweek evening also (is that just evening, or is it a sleepover evening/night?), instead of Thurs-Sun, with Thurs included as the midweek night, then you are cutting down on his time, and he may well be reacting to this.

he now gets (eg) Tues evening (with possibe overnight, but my impression is not - sorry if I am wrong), then all day Saturday, all day Sunday. He used to get Thurs evening+night, Friday all day (he may have been in an "empty house" as you put it - many teenagers are in empty houses all day while their parents work - such is modern life. he is in his home alone - why you owuld find this odd I don't know - he should fee able to relax and mooch about his home on his own)+Friday night, Saturday all day +night, and Sunday all day.

He has lost at least one overnight, if not two, and space and time to chill in his father's house.

I am not surprised he is feelign unhappy.

I do not disagree with the flexibility in principle - but to try to force him to cut down on his tiem spent at your house/with his dad is wrong.

I also agree with you (and we have spoken before on this subject) that he coudl do with soem friends/outside interests/whatever - but he is nlikely to just get up and create these. he has not done so thus far, and clearly struggles with that whole social aspect - he needs help to sort this out - has your dh ever tried involvin him in hobbies/starting him off on an interest/findig something they can do together? where he woudl meet more people, build relationships with them too etc.

Oh Petal I saw the thread title and my heart sank on your behalf. It's great that DH is sticking to your agreement. Really hope things work out and DSS gets over his 'trauma' at flexibility . I think now that you have both made the move, any step backwards would then create a precedent for any future changes to the pattern (i.e. if you don't introduce flexibility now, when would it ever happen, now that you'd have gone through the whole trial process already and he didn't like it)>

"RhiRhi ? there are some great threads on this forum, about ladies who are expecting babies on access weekends. Advice ranges from ?insist your due-date is kept stepchild-free? to ?why not let the step child witness the entire birth to ensure they don?t feel traumatised/left out ?????

One of the posts I remember most clearly was someone actually suggesting that the DSCs had a stronger need to bond with the new baby than it's mother. I asked that poster if for example a bf mother should hand over a screaming hungry baby to the DSCs in case they felt left out - she never did answer me

What a ridiculous thing for your MIL to say. It doesn't surprise me though, that really is the attitude of families involved with DSCs. Luckily my DH was pragmatic and as soon as I went into labour that day's access visit was cancelled

No, he doesn't have any mental health problems - he's just a bit clingy, DH thinks he isn't keen on change (although he seems to cope with changes at his mothers house fairly well, ie new babies), and (I suspect) likes the security of the access rota, and tends to hide behind it.

With the flexible arrangements, I was sitting down with him and the calendar, saying what can WE work out, nothing was imposed upon him, however this weekend his insisted he wanted to go back to the rota, hence the conversations I posted about on this thread.

But he'll never migrate from childhood into young adulthood if he has to live by a rota. There isn't a job, college course or voluntary placement on the planet that would accommodate the present arrangements. We were hoping he would find a job, and fit his visits to us around the job, not vice versa.

Thanks petal - I think if DSS witnessed the enitre birth he'd be more traumatised than by missing a weekend lol! i'll keep an eye out for those threads.

My DH is the same he says he doesn't want to be arguing on weekends so he lets DSS get away with far more than i imagine he'll let our DD get away with as she'll be here full time. I think ur doing the right thing with regards to sitting down with DSS and giving him the chance to agree/disagree with times etc. This might encourage him to suggest different options himself.

"many teenagers are in empty houses all day while their parents work - such is modern life. he is in his home alone - why you owuld find this odd I don't know - he should fee able to relax and mooch about his home on his own"

From what I've read of Petal's previous posts though, DSS's visits aren't anything like him just being at home. There is the unspoken expectation that he is to be 'entertained' and have 24/7 sort of interraction with parents. Now that is extremely unusual for a 17yo. The sort of mooching around you describe, yes, is very normal indeed, but that is not the case here. From what I've witnessed in my own home, DSS 1 is at a complete loss in our house when not being entertained by DH. This comes from years and years of being treated and entertained like visiting royalty. So the idea that Petal's DSS is literally sitting looking at 4 walls waiting for his dad to come home is very much the mental picture I have. i.e. not a 'regular' 17yo buried in his bedroom with an xbox not giving a hoot about where his dad is

Allnew i remember that thread! people do say some funny things my bet is that most of them that comment in that way havent been in this position!
My DH has been very good with regards to me being pregnant running around after me etc so i think when the time comes he'll be understanding and change the access. It's the MIL that will have the problem with it. Not my problem!

Petal - My DSS (nearly 11) is VERY clingy even more so lately (maybe due to the impending baby) he follows DH round the house constantly even when DH went to the toilet and then sat in the bathroom whilst he took a shower. I just find it wierd. I don't get a converstation with DH the whole weekend that DSS is here because he can't seem to entertain himself and as soon as i open my mouth to talk to DH it's 'dad dad'. It was my birthday on saturday and we went for a walk (this was a compromise as it's not my idea of birthday fun but DSS turned his nose up at everything else i suggested). DSS did nothing but moan the whole time. DH told him off and said it was my day etc and it all ended in tears!

Whats your DSS like at home (with you) does he do his own thing or attatch himself to your DH?

allnew - yes, I do see what you mean.

but it ties in with what I have discussed with Petal previously

obviously, I do not know her ss (or her!) - but hwat come sacross form her posts is a picture of a teen who is socially immature, not able to sustain friendships amongst his peer group, needing much adult direction (and he then clings to the adults who let this happen - I can see why her dh does let it happen, and I do not htink it is all "disneydad" driven, but instead inpart stems form her dh knowign his son is having htese difficulties, not knowing what to do about them, and helping in the best way he can, which is no to say that it is right!)

this is a boy who needs help.

the help and support needs to be small steps (and the sudden change of rta to flexible weeknds/losign the time as I set out earlier is too big a change. Petal's ss accepted it, and accepted ti well when the rota needed to change for a reason. he may well be thinking there is noneed to be flexible now, as no event planned fo rPetal/Petal's dh, so why not have a couple of weeks back the old way? flexibility needs to come form both sides - Petal is in danger of being as intractable and rigid as she sees her ss being - not entertaining for one second the notion that he could come this week form Thurs-Sun.

why coudl this not happen btw? I fully understand why you don't want to fall back into it, Petal, but why doe sthe new flexibility have to be less time? why could ss not come over mon-Thur, then all day Sunday, for eg?

you may see it as him sitting there staring at 4 walls just waiting for his dad, but tbh, if that is how he is happy, then why not?

Silverfrog ? you?re right that to have a mid week night (this would be a stop-over), followed by a Sat/Sun weekend is a reduction of one night, however we offered him an open invitation to ?come for tea or play gold with Dad? (ie a ?floating visit?) whenever he likes, as a way to introduce flexibility.

As regards mooching round an empty house ? whilst I?m sure many teenagers mooch around their OWN HOMES when their parents are out, I?m not sure I understand why SS needs to be specifically collected and brought to HIS FATHERS HOUSE to hang round the place when no one is in. Surely ?access? is about DH/SS spending time together, not SS spending time alone at our house just because it?s rostered. I don?t go and visit people when they?re not in.

When I was a child, I didn?t visit my father?s home when he wasn?t there ? what would be the point??????

Allnew ? you have a very accurate perception of our household situation, thank you for your understanding.

Silverfrog ? I don?t mind what pattern it takes, and would be quite happy to do the occasional Thur-Sun, just to long as it?s not set in stone. However ?little and often? seems to work better for everyone, even DH commented on it.

You suggested him coming from Mon-Thur, and then for the day on Sunday. Given he?s now left school, this would just mean him hanging round the house alone all day from Mon-Thur. Neither DH nor I are keen on this sort of thing ? if he?s in the house alone obviously we can?t lock up/secure the house, but he sits upstairs in his bedroom watching TV all day, and anyone could walk in downstairs and he wouldn?t notice. We?ve tried locking the door and leaving him with a key, but he doesn?t like that (can I remind you he?s nearly 17 ??.).

We?re almost in a position where we?d need to send him to a child minder if he had to spend consecutive days alone at our house.

One more thing ? if he came from Mon-Thurs, and then back again for the day on Sunday, then that?s five days out of a week. Which is almost like him living with us. Even DH would consider that too much.

petal - your ss has 2 homes - one with his mother, and one with his father. that is just the way it is.

he can mooch around whichever he chooses to, and I don't understand why you would make the distinction you do - ie that it is ok for him to mooch around his mother's house, butnot around his father's house.

the way you are putting it, you are making access all about being in the physical presence of his father. in my view, when my step children come to stay - they shoudl be doign everythign that they woudl do while at their mother's house. see friends (or not); get up and come on days out (or not); hang about the house on their own/with each othr/with friends/with dh - the same range of htings they would do when at their mother's house.

if you are saying he shoudl only come over when he can be together with your dh - this is more than alittle contradictory to your many posts on being frustrated that eh hangs around your dh all the time, is always physically in contact with him, never does anythign different.

I can't see how the 2 positions are reconcilable. and I am mystified as to why you woudl want to make it seem as though the house is not your ss' other home - ie to hang out in (on his own, if that is what he prefers) whn he wants to (which for now is on a rota basis, as he is clearly mre comfortable with that idea. but I agree taht needs work)

tbh, everythign aboout your posts screams that you want flexibiltiy form your side, and are not prepared ot give a little.

are you really saying that his own father would not want to spend a weeks' worth of evenigns with him?!

I really really do understand your position - my dsd is clingy enough, and immature enough to be more work than my severely disabled daughter, or my 4 year old (or in fact, the pair of them put together). but she has a right to see her dad, and dh lieks to see her.

every so often, what I described is what happens - dsd will come down for a week (dss will too, but he is less work for me these days!) - dh is out at work each day. I am the one entertaining dsd - not really entertaining as such, but she will come along on every school run, every suermarket trip - a trip to the post office, or even to pick up dry cleaning - no peace and psace to myself.

she will then natter at me while I cook dinner (she does help too!), and then dh can come home, and I can retire a little, and hand over the babysitting to him . but it gets them some time together, and at least once that week, dh will go out ot dinner with dsd, so i gwet an evening off. hard work, yes. but then I knew dh had childrne when I married him, and I would not expect him to put me before them - this is not every week, it is maybe 4 times a year. it is infuriating, adn bloody hard work, but there are more weeks where it does not happen (and I don;t mean we only see ehr for those 4 weeks, bt other times dh has holiday - we all go on holiday, or dh goes away for the weekend, or hatever). she also comes down for the odd day here and there.

tbh, the person I feel for most is your ss. h is pushed to his father's house by his mother (who form previous posts is equally unhappy ot hear of rota changes - screams to ss that his mother doens't want him), then just as fast pushed back to his mother.

noone bothering about how he feels in this (he has repeatedly said he wants ot stick to the rota, but it must change (and I understand why) but he is given no help in preparing him for this - it just happens out of the blue. he is given no support, and when he asks for it to go abck for a while, he is ignored. he says he is unhappy about that (and understandably - he tried the f;exible htign, and it worked well. he wants some familiarlity for a little wile, yet flexibility is not given back) but this is overridden and ignored.

We did a thread a while ago with regards to over nighters remember?

The thing is silverfrog i really don't think it matters if it's one night less but possibly 2 extra days or even if it's the same amount of days? surely the day times are the bit that counts where Petals DH and SS will be spending the time together?

I agree with you Petal with not seeing the point in ur SS being at your house with no one else being there. Access mon-thurs and then sunday is a whole week! with friday and sat being the 'w/e' thats a lot when potentially your DH is at work monday-Friday. It seems a bit silly to have a whole week of access without them actually hardly seeing each other.

Maybe a Tuesday for dinner and say friday for dinner and stay over then all day saturday till say 6pm that way Petal and her DH can spend quality time together maybe have dinner sat night and have a day out together Sunday. Not that i'm suggesting this at all Petal but the last thing i'm sure SS would need is things to get frought with you and ur DH when he's around. With regards to if access completely takes over the whole week when do petal and her DH get to have their adult time? im not implying anything honestly just saying in my expericence my Dh and i tend to not have any time together on access weekends as DSS needs to be 'entertained' This reults in the odd argument and the atmosphere between us starting to get a bit tense. I don't honestly think my marriage would last that long if we had DSS here so much with me being treated like a slave tidying cooking etc and not having any 'us' time my DH it would get resentful.

rhirhi, I am not suggestign it happen every week.

but really, another household where you could not cope with a week of your stepchild's presence?

blimey.

I am sparting to see birthmotehr's persective on some of this - and while I woudl never say I was an exmplary stepmother, I have never turned them away if they ahve wanted to come (obviously booked/diaried events notwithstanding).

they are welcome here whenever - whether that means for the rota'd time, as set out in the contact order, or the whole of the summer vacation. to mooch while dh is here, or while he is at owrk.

it is how families hsoudl be, imo - always welcome, give and take on both sides.

sorry bit of a x'd post

I do see what u mean Silverfrog but as u have said ur weeks with DSD are only 4 times a year petal has this issue everyweek. I'm sure she'd be more than happy to cope with it if it was 4 times a year. As would i.

Petal has never said he is not welcome it's just about coming to a bit more of a flexible arrangment which at that age is definately not unreasonable. Without sounding like i'm belittling ur SS Petal it's almost as if the access has to be looked at as if he is a youngish child that can't be left on his own.

At 17 i don't think access really should be access anymore. You tend to see ur parents when u want to at that age whether u live at home or not. You tend to come and go as u please. A 'normal' 17 yr old im sure would go out friday and sat night and maybe pop into dads on a sat for lunch or a couple of weekday evenings for dinner something which is flexible. Petal has done the access thing for many years i think as a grown up with a grown up SS she should be able to start putting DH and her self first a bit more i.e be able to book a weekend away without having that constant worry of how it will go down with SS and his mother etc etc. I'm sure it would be nice for her to not have to sit with a calender when preparing holidays as most people would when their own children are of that age ( before i get flamed for being selfish for not putting SS first for once!)

I mean as most people wouldn't with children that age*

Petal02 - i do understand where you are coming from. At 17 your DSS should be able to cope. If he is having trouble coping why not suggest he recieves some help. But even i can see you will be having DSS, his wife/gf and their kids on the rota schedule. I am also wondering what happens if DSS has to change the rota for any reasons - surely he copes then.