If he won't talk

[Adriane]

I feel cheeky posting as I'm not a regular, but I've lurked long enough to know the advice will be sound. I'm driving myself loopy trying to deal with this alone.

What do you do if your gut instinct tells you that something is amiss, you ask upfront and your dp carries on as if the words were never spoken?

We've been together for 13 years. Our dc is 8. He's always been my best friend. He does the whole male-thing of bottling his emotions, but normally, if I ask, he tells me what is troubling him and we sort it out.

The last few months have been strained. It seemed to happen overnight. Over a weekend in fact. His job means he works away. On this occasion, someone rang in sick so he had to cover. He was fine when he left and a different person when he came home.

I asked him at the time and he started to blame me for financial decisions we'd made together. How he can no longer afford to change his car once a year or buy designer suits. He hates being poor.

We're not poor by any stretch. We have less disposable income, but we're not poor. I asked him what he wanted to do and he said he was resigned to poverty.

He's been detached since. There's no affection coming from him. I have to ask for any morsel of attention from him. It's breaking my heart. He acts like a friendly stranger.

I ask him and ask him if he's okay, if we're okay and he just ignores it. I wonder sometimes if the words disappear in the air between us. He'll chatter quite pleasantly about the mundane and functional, but nothing more. We're like two people at a bus stop.

This week has been bad. Day after day of silence. In the end I broke and told him I was leaving to think things through. No reply. Then a few hours later, he sent a breezy text about how he was heading home and how cold the weather was.

I don't understand. Is he having some kind of breakdown? Is he hiding something? What do I do?

[MrsLucasNorth]

It strikes me that something happened that weekend that is having an effect on his behaviour. The obvious conclusion to jump to is other woman I guess, but if he's physical behaviour hasn't been any different since (i.e. he's not suddenly being furtive, working late etc) perhaps he just met some people of a similar age and starting making comparisions between their lifestyle and his which, if they've perhaps not got kids or are living the highlife off their credit cards, may appear to him to be 'better'.

Obviously you need to get to the bottom of it but I can't be much help there I'm afraid, my DH isn't a 'talker' either

[Appletrees]

His behaviour is passive aggressive. He is hurting you as much as if he was shouting at you every day. Tell him this.

[Appletrees]

Should add, I started doing this with my "not talker" and it worked . I got depressed with being the one who "talked" and being told to stop having a go, starting an argument etc.

So I said, actually it's you, you're being aggressive by ignoring me and not talking, it's deeply hostile and you can't pretend it isn't. I told him I was responding to his own, passive, aggression. He's an intelligent sort, he saw it. I'm sure your dh is just as aware and will understand exactly what you mean.

[batman47555]

maybe he is facing redundancy and hasn't told you
i know a couple who split up over the threat of redundancy, it put them in a depression the could not recover from, and when it didn't happen it was too late

[ItsGraceAgain]

How very odd that you can pinpoint this all to the one weekend. I wonder if he was feeling disaffected before the event, then those few days consolidated his grumpiness concerns? Are you sure he did go to work? He couldn't have done something odd like a life-changing course, or visited a friend for intense discussions (or, indeed, an OW)?

It's very insulting to be told that your life isn't good enough for your partner, but he'll put up with it if you keep out of his hair! You must feel ever so sad, and quite angry. It almost sounds as though he's clinically depressed, but that doesn't come on so suddenly - unless he experienced a severe trauma or was exposed to banned chemicals? (They had outbreaks of suicide in Latin-American tobacco plantations, due to the pesticides - just trying to cover all bases here.)

Purveyors of snake oil and self-help like to present mid-life crisis as a standalone condition, with specific treatments. It isn't. It is normal to review one's life and choices around 40yo. If this review throws up regrets or reveals new ambitions, there's a strong impetus to change. The 'treatment' is courageous talk, followed by affirmative action.

I agree with Appletrees, and wish I'd known about things like passive agression in the past. There's nothing to lose by raising the topic transparently, and much to possibly gain. I do hope you get somewhere with this!

[ItsGraceAgain]

Sorry for my verbosity - I wanted to add that I think he deserves some sympathy for not being able to afford this year's car, that suit, etc. I don't know how you reacted to his remarks, but his feelings are valid even though there's nothing to be done on a practical level. For myself: I compensate by fantasy shopping (just to keep my eye in ) and, meantime, have adopted a lifestyle that's far cheaper to maintain but is still a lifestyle, iyswim.

[JBellingham]

Tell him you want a divorce, he will contemplate the shit load of cash he will lose and realise he is not so poor. Then tell him you decided to stay. He will feel affluent again.

[WherecanIhide]

Re what ItsGraceAgain says re reviewing ones life around age 40 and this providing strong impettus for change: This could be true but also translate as 'grass is greener' syndrome.

This lack of communication is not fair on you. If he doesn't communicate then this could drag on and on and get worse. I imagine you need to confront him and be supportive but make it clear he needs to confront his issues

[Adriane]

I don't think I realized how controlling his behaviour is until I read back my post. Strange how things look in black and white.

Thanks for the replies. I've been through most of these reasons in my head already - someone else, redundancy, the fact that he's being a spoilt mard arse.

I've asked about redundancy and it's not that. There were mass redundancies about 12 months ago, even though the company is doing remarkably well out of the recession. I've always found them quite mercenary and wholly anti-family. It's quite a seductive life he lives away from us. Company credit cards are splashed around rather liberally. He used to frequently pop a couple of hundred of our money behind the bar for his colleagues. Such waste. He can't afford to do that now; I don't know if it's caused comment.

If I'm honest, my instinct says there's someone else, even though it's based on nothing. I have snooped and there's nothing suspicious. He doesn't delete his mail, internet history or his phone. There's nothing there I wouldn't expect to see. We have a joint bank account and that's fine. He works away an awful lot, but he always has. Ditto working late. He's no more furtive than normal. Certain behaviours are odd, but not necessarily out of character. He gets somewhat OCD when stressed.

He did have an affair early on in our relationship. It started as an EA with a colleague. He ended our relationship quite quickly and while I suspected an OW, he denied it. We lived together and I found a receipt for flowers. Somehow my knowing seemed to give him permission for it to develop into a PA. It lasted less than a few weeks. It took me a long time to forgive him. I don't know if I'll ever be that innocent again. I do wonder if my suspicions are based on not quite trusting him, 10 years later. It's my first thought whenever he acts out.

Appletrees - I've tried reflecting his behaviour and not being the one to initiate every time. We sit in silence for hours. Days. He called me grumpy and when I told him why I was being that way, he shrugged and wandered off.

[Adriane]

ItsGraceAgain - the weekend was strange. He was himself before he left. I can remember us joking in the kitchen, making supper. He went the following morning and we didn't from him. Usually he telephones, but nothing. He was quiet when he came back. I asked if everything was okay and got the diatribe about money.

He flits between being overly prudent and quite slap-happy with his cash. Every once in a while, he'll decide he earns it so he can spent it. My attitude is that he can buy what he likes as long as we save for it. When he wants to spend, it's instant gratification.

Our joint income is fairly healthy, but we've wasted an awful lot of it over the last few years. We bought a larger house recently and that's killed our spending power. We're not broke, but we have to think before we buy.

[ItsGraceAgain]

I'm stumped :(

You probably know I'm a big fan of trusting your instincts, Adriane, so if that's what yours are suggesting - and you have been there before - I'm inclined to respect them. What if he's been having a low-key, stress-free thing for quite a while but she's now become seriously ill, pregnant or otherwise emotionally demanding? How would you feel about that - would you be up to waiting it out? (And perhaps asking a PI to get some info, depending on your nature.)

[StuffingGoldBrass]

Is it possible that he saw his former OW again (not as in met up with, but bumped into) and she was dripping diamonds with a gorgeous young man on her arm who she kept nibbling the ear of? Because something like that could easily trigger a big bout of 'My life's shit and it's all your fault' as he starts thinking that if he'd dumped you for her maybe he would be having this fabulous life.
Not excusing his behaviour at all: he made his choice and should stick with it or, if he has decided he wants out of the marriage he should tell you in a civil fashion and make arrangements to leave, while being fair about the division of assets.

[ItsGraceAgain]

x-posted, SGB! That thought crossed my mind, too ...

[ItsGraceAgain]

... or all the other boys splashed out expensive hookers treats, which he couldn't afford ...

[Adriane]

:(

It seems DP doesn't know what he wants. He thinks buying the house was a mistake. He loves me, but isn't in love with me. He's scared of losing DD.

We talked for hours last night, both of us in tears for the most part. He feel guilty and ashamed about how he's treated me, not just recently, but long term. I've been a single mum to DD for the most part as his career has always been his priority. He was a weekend dad for the first 4 years of her life and not every weekend at that. He thinks he's a terrible father. A selfish man who shouldn't have had children and now he wants to go, live alone, lick his wounds.

I think he's depressed and I'm torn between being beyond angry with him for doing this again (he did the same thing when we bought our first home and when we had DD). I'm also worried for him and for me. If he goes, I don't know how we'll cope.

I tried to explain to him that what he thinks of as 'in love' is a temporary state and relationships move on beyond it, but I think he wants that initial rush again. He says there's no-one else. I don't know if I believe him. His words were ones I've heard before, just before I discovered he was screwing a colleague.

We've been living in limbo for years and I just can't do it anymore. I want a home and to feel settled and safe, with or without him. I can cope with the times he isn't physically here, if I know I can rely on him emotionally, but this.. this is no good. I told him that if he was unsure whether he wanted us, I didn't want him. The shock on his face was quite something.

He feels that I don't listen to his opinions and undermine him, yet he wants me to be more self-sufficient and independent. He want's me to take more control of 'stuff'. Nebulous stuff. Not sure what. I don't quite know how the two marry. Is it a case that I have to second guess what he wants and then do it?

So it's been left that we both have to think about whether we want to work it out. His words. He was so cold this morning, I suspect this is just words and he's simply psyching himself up to go.

[MrsLucasNorth]

If this is a repeating pattern I'm thinking it might be better for you and your DD if you cut your losses tbh.

Maybe worth considering counselling first to be sure in your own head if there is anything left fighting for but it sounds as if he seriously needs to grow up and based on his track record so far doesn't look like that's likely to happen.

[MrsLucasNorth]

btw - I have been in a similar position with my DH and emotional affair. There were many other issues around it and we split for a few months during which time they went on a couple of dates and called then called it quits.

We have been back together 11 years, married for 8 and have a 6yo child - I still don't trust him 100%

[ItsGraceAgain]

I agree - sadly - with MrsLN. Given the repeating cycles you've just described, the reasons for his behaviour are immaterial at bottom. What he's saying is that, when the going gets tough, he will always blame and punish you for the seeming imperfection of his life. It would be insane to trust someone like this: someone who's incapable of stepping in to take the load when things go wrong. Finally, then, for all his better qualities, he's more of a boy than a man and therefore an unwise choice of life partner :(

People like this make vicious divorce partners (they blame you, of course). You do seem to be between a rock and a hard place. Do you feel able to go to Relate BY YOURSELF, to help you sort out your ideas and priorities?

That "Not in love with you" line is a killer, isn't it. Utterly meaningless in itself, but full of information about the speaker and his relationship to you. I do hope you are finding plenty of real-life support.

[Adriane]

I had a long chat with a friend this morning and came to the same conclusion about his needing to grow up.

All I want is to get on with life. It feels like it's been on hold for so long. First with him working away; then when he came home, we simply didn't have enough space to move. Now we have space and he's throwing a wobble. I'd prefer to live with him than without, but still..

He hasn't thought this through at all. I told him that living alone can be very lonely (he's neither done it - even when he lived away from home, he was in a bachelor house-share). He told me that he wouldn't be alone as he'd have DD. Excuse me? I pointed out that he couldn't be her primary carer due to his commitments. It would a routine of every other weekend and holidays at best. This shocked him too and he said he'd miss out on her growing up. I'm sure he thought I'd act as some form of on-tap babysitter, dropping her off and collecting her as his schedule allowed. She needs stability more than I do. I won't let that happen.

[Adriane]

I have good friends and family, IGA; I've needed to build up a support network. I'll feel it most financially. We're not married so I can't expect much beyond some maintenance for DD.

I'm fuming with him as if we'd stayed in our old home, I could have managed to keep up the mortgage alone and we would have been secure. There just wasn't enough space for all of us there. We've wasted so much money on moving here. We'll lose money if we sell.

[ItsGraceAgain]

Good to hear you've got worthwhile friends, Adriane :) A lot of this is about your feeling blown about, isn't it? You're getting all the responsibility with no executive powers. I suspect you'll feel much better when you've got a workable exit plan in place, so please continue to thrash this out with friends - and the CAB; their funding's being cut from March, so get in there now!

Whether you use your exit plan remains to be seen, perhaps, but you'll be in a better position to handle the relationship problem when you don't feel so trapped.

[Adriane]

Yes.

I've been given a list of 'self-improvements' I can do to encourage him to stay. Not as brutal as that. They're stupid little minor things. I'm painting him wrong as I'm angry. He is a good man, I wouldn't have stayed this long otherwise. However the world revolves around him in his tiny mind.

Instead of looking at how I can improve, I've found myself checking out the local rental market and my benefit entitlement. I think I'll feel better once I know there's an exit plan.

[pickgo]

Sorry Adriane, but I have to say I'd be surprised if there isn't an OW somewhere behind all this.
He definitely wants out.
As soon as they shut down like this I think it's all over in their heads - they just haven't got round to mentioning it to you.
If you've got a joint account empty it NOW. Get all the documents you need together and put them out of his reach. Get anything of value because once you're out of there I bet you won't get a bean.
Sorry to say this, but long-term you'll feel better if you get what you can now.
Look after yourself.

[StuffingGoldBrass]

Honestly, sort out or exit plan and get rid. What this man wants is is home comforts and you to service him while asking him for nothing and allowing him to have sex with other women - somewhere deep down he believes that all women are desperate to Keep Their Man and therefore you will jump through hoops to accomodate him every time he threatens to leave.
He will be a bloody awful XP unfortunately, so make sure you know all the facts before you tell him he's dumped, so he can't mislead you with the usual bullshit men like this come out with ie he will throw you into the street/fight for custody (he woud't get custody when you are a fit and loving mother and he is a workaholic who would be leaving DD in the care of nannies/childminders all day).

[Adriane]

I missed the last couple of replies on Friday, but they echo my thoughts, which is sort of reassuring in a sad way.

We had another talk on Friday evening. He told me what he wanted from me and, to be fair, there was nothing unreasonable in any of what he had to say. Part of it was how we manage the finances - at the moment I simply work within the budgets he's set, he wants me to get more involved in working out how we afford our living costs. He cited examples; I pointed out that all he had to do in each instance was ask for my opinion rather than go it alone and resent the fact. The rest of his gripes were centred around sharing responsibility for driving. I lost my confidence on the roads a few years ago and he wants me to start driving again. It shouldn't always be him, which is fair enough.

I told him that I needed him to take more responsibility for childcare and to think of his family before his job. He's very good with DD and when he's home, he more than pulls his weight. However, the onus is always on me to be primary carer. I can't do anything independently without giving several weeks notice. Even then I may have to sort out a separate babysitter. He thinks nothing of coming and going as he pleases. He lived as a single man for so long in DDs early years, he never adjusted to having family responsibilities. All I want is to considered before he agrees to time away from home.

He said this sounded reasonable, but he'd have to think about whether he could commit to it. Three days on and he's still thinking.

I'm not sure I actually care anymore. Friday night was fine, Saturday okay and today has been strained. He's veering between being himself and this stranger who has completely shut down. I've no idea what is going on in his head. There's absolutely nothing to suggest he has an OW. I've looked and looked.

I've checked into the finances and as we're not married, it would be a struggle. My health is shocking, I'm due to go in for surgery in the next month or so, there's things I need to do before I'm in a position to take care of myself and DD. Things are civil between us for the moment, no arguments, no fighting. His emotional detachment is upsetting, but I care less each day and think I could detach myself for the time it takes to sort myself out. Each time he's wobbled, I love him a little less. There isn't really that much left anymore.

The consensus of replies to thread like mine seems to be to get out and quickly. Would it be very wrong to make sure I'm in a better position to leave before I actually do?