The Muslim Tearoom

(1000 Posts)
HardlyEverHoovers Wed 20-Mar-13 15:25:06

Salaams/peace to all! I'm already missing our old thread, so taking the bull by the horns and opening our very own Muslim Tearoom, all welcome (non-Muslims too of course), to chat, share, ask questions etc etc. Imagine a cosy cafe with floor cushions, tea and coffee of all kinds, and lovely cakes! Please join me!

fuzzywuzzy Sat 20-Apr-13 09:37:06

I knew about the face veil, the ehram is supposed to represent the shroud, we dont cover faces when we put the dead in the grave.

In the harraam, it's all segregated, but during the hajj rites the prayers are mixed, but thats because you would never find your companion if you went to the back to pray!

crescentmoon Sat 20-Apr-13 09:58:13

i went on a course last year about how to wash the dead before burial, then a lady passed away soon after and i was one of the women called in to prepare her. it was very sobering and moving, i didnt realise the ihram during Hajj was supposed to represent that.

Cuddledup Sat 20-Apr-13 18:19:43

Oh thank you for those wonderfully informative replies. Now you've explained it to me it makes total sense. Of course why would you want to be standing next to a completely strange (!) man when the prayers are so physical. As usual what seems as an odd thing on the face of it is completely logical when explained. TBH in church it does seem odd to be sitting next to strangers even when kneeling in prayer.
Thanks as always for taking the time to explain. Hope you're all having a good weekend.

fuzzywuzzy Sat 20-Apr-13 19:46:48

Cuddledup, when we pray we actually stand so our shoulders and feet touch. Seriously don't like touching random strangers, less so random strange men.

Glad it answers your question.

Cuddledup Sat 20-Apr-13 20:38:09

Fuzzy I know exactly what you mean. Years ago a friend encouraged me to go salsa dancing with her and i HATED it. Not just because I have two left feet and no sense of rythymn but I was so uncomfortable being that close to a complete stranger. IT seemed so wrong to me! Needless to say I stopped salsa dancing.

crescentmoon Sat 20-Apr-13 20:50:22

(whispers Anyone else found themselves moving slowly and carefully whilst out and about this week? bummed like me that those guys behind the bombings werent extremist right wingers? now its not one of them they are going to be leading the baying for all of us to be villified instead. sigh peace sisters.)

Glad to help cuddledup. Il make a small confession, knowing the teen I was I think it was probably good our mosque had separate male and female entrances as I would probably have been the type to loiter/walk slowly through the mosque courtyard otherwise lol. It made it that if I'm going to the mosque its not to see and be seen by the boys my own age ha.

crescentmoon Sat 20-Apr-13 20:58:34

Funny you say that about salsa dancing. I had my French friend once show me a type of ballroom dancing and I was really keen to learn but I felt the same way as you once we started. She laughed at me because I'd shown her how to do other dances but they don't have any contact- sensual not sexual. I hated the holding close thing and i became so shy though I was always tended to be an extrovert myself!

Cuddledup Mon 22-Apr-13 20:41:17

Another question - or rather advice please - how do you manage to fast without thinking about food ALL the time. Recently I've started the 5:2 diet and on the two days I eat 500 calories I find I'm dreaming about food an awful lot of the time! SO ladies - what's your advice ? How do you manage Ramadan - obviously your minds are more spiritual matters so I goes that helps!

CoteDAzur Mon 22-Apr-13 20:48:01

Cuddle - It's probably not just standing side by side with strange men but also having those strange men in the row behind you getting a good view of your backside as you bend forward, put your face to the floor and point your bum to the ceiling smile

Re fasting - Not eating/drinking at all prevents your metabolism from properly restarting (or some such) so you don't feel that hungry even though you eat nothing all day. Maybe try that as a diet or maybe don't because it's silly

CoteDAzur Mon 22-Apr-13 20:51:44

crescent - I was in London last week when the Boston bombs went off and the resentment towards the visibly Muslim part of the population was palpable.

BlueOrange Mon 22-Apr-13 21:25:26

Salaam all.... Did anyone watch panorama - secrets of britains shariah courts? I agree with what the woman said at the end of the program. I do think that women seeking divorce via khula should be made much easier - because in islam it is easier. I also wonder how many women (if any) are able to sit on the council and make decisions as such. I feel it is vital that there are more women involved in such councils and then you will see fairer and better quality of advice.

BlueOrange Mon 22-Apr-13 21:33:30

Cuddle i couldnt advise on the 5:2 diet as i like the thought of trying it to gain the benefits of health and weight loss but do not last the day! it is in fact it a highly virtuous act for muslims to fast on alternate days. On the other hand, i find that if i am fasting for ramadan or other religious days (for the sake of Allah) i feel i have the will and resolve to keep going.

BlueOrange Mon 22-Apr-13 21:42:25

Cote.... The bum is not meant to be in the air........ If so, you are doing something wrong. The hands, toes, knees, nose and forehead should make contact with the floor. It is called prostration - submission to your Lord.

nailak Mon 22-Apr-13 21:55:47

I am watching now, I agree blue it should be easier and less expensive. However I didn't like the programme. It wasn't balanced in any way.

nailak Mon 22-Apr-13 21:56:37

in fact im gonna turn it off now is a waste of time

crescentmoon Mon 22-Apr-13 22:04:54

the issue of khul is very fraught isnt it blue. in the time of the prophet (pbuh) khul was the way a woman got out of a marriage that she no longer wanted without having to prove the husband mistreated her. its the earliest 'no fault' divorce.
but many muslim cultures would not allow the hadith and verses on the quran about this right to be enacted. but they still allowed men to divorce by talaq - and men could leave without efforts to reconcile but women had to show they tried to reconcile before theygot their divorce.

in Egypt it was only in March 2000 that khul divorce was allowed because of campaigning by womens rights activists. before then the husband had to give permission for a divorce but after the law was enacted the judge could give a woman her divorce without the permission of the husband by allowing her to give her mahr back. it is said that by the middle of that first month, 3,000 petitions by women seeking divorce under these provisions were filed in Cairo alone.

www.wisemuslimwomen.org/currentissues/separationanddivorcelaws/

more on the egypt casein particular...

gabrielsawma.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/khul-divorce-in-egypt.html

i know in the UK now there is no need to get an islamic divorce if a couple go through/ attain the british court decree nisi and decree absolut. the islamic divorce begins from the decree absolut - i dont know how long that has been the case it surprised me. you still need to have an islamic nikah to marry but do not need a specifically islamic divorce to split up.

nailak Mon 22-Apr-13 22:04:57

and they didnt answer the basic question if there are no shariah councils then it would be impossible for women to get khula and be free of nikkah, so how would that be better?

crescentmoon Mon 22-Apr-13 22:23:26

check this out though naila

www.muftisays.com/qa/question/4211/separated-for-6-years.html

it says that the court divorce decree absolut is now enough and a women need no longer specifically obtain an islamic divorce. i think that would save alot of sisters from alot of hassle inshaallah.

as for fasting cuddledup - i cannot manage it outside of ramadan. iv thought about the 5:2 fasting but tbh i dont have the self discipline to starve myself like that. i dont know what happens to me during ramadan but i find a way to manage it - more because it is obligatory than a nice spiritual exercise to do. iv got an exemption from fasting this years ramadan though and - Allah forgive me - it was the only bright side to a big change of plans!

cote as to that it is quite noticeable at times. nowhere near as bad as after july 7th though - i was doing a summer job then and my boss told me that morning to go home for my own safety - he was an Aussie as well!

crescentmoon Mon 22-Apr-13 22:30:52

im glad oral repudiation - which many men misuse - is being phased out in alot of countries and instead focus is on court divorce.

BlueOrange Mon 22-Apr-13 22:43:45

Naila, you are right. The program portrayed dr Hasan as unsympathetic to women's plight. It didnt highlight the fact that he asked the woman to give it a month in order for her to be certain that this was the right decision for her.

Nobody said not to involve police - they said that if you bring in the police, you are basically setting the wheels in motion for divorce proceedings rather than resolving issues.

All that said and done, i do feel that charging women £400 is ludicrous and a shariah council creating difficulties for women to get khula is not very islamic either. None of the undercover reports in this program showed dr hasan or the lady advisor (missed her name ) saying that the women would not get a khula.

I say it again....we need more women on these councils.

nailak Mon 22-Apr-13 22:58:29

hmm but the thing is a shariah council is supposed to be a place for judges, which means the issue really is getting more women to study islamic jurisprudence in depth.

BlueOrange Mon 22-Apr-13 23:38:43

Naila, there are so many knowledgeable sisters.....and many know more about islam than men sitting in these councils. Charging women £400? Asking for husband to come who has a history of violence proven with injunctions? Dragging out khula applications for years. These cases do not seem very islamically dealt with to me. It s so unfortunate when a woman complains of husband hitting her and then she is asked if she makes herself look pretty for her huband by another woman. That is not an islamic question, but a cultural one.

The islamc guideline of a woman beautifying herself for her husband does not equal to a woman must look pretty for her husband so that he might spare her a beating!

I am shocked that a country like egypt never allowed something as fundamental as a khula divorce until 2000.

nailak Mon 22-Apr-13 23:57:42

knowledgable is different from having studied in Islamic universities though?

I agree these cases havent been dealt with Islamically. But you also have to remember video editing. Looking good for your husband is an ibadah it is from Islam. of course not looking good doesnt justify violence, however i didnt see the sister say if you dont dress up it was ok for your husband to hit you. Also her advice to get family involved, what was wrong with that? women shouldnt be afraid to speak out to their community about abuse, they havent done anything wrong, brothers who are afraid of their fathers and brothers, this can effect them!

The major problem i can see is if the husband doesnt come. But if the husband doesnt come and doesnt reply to letters they grant the khula.

fuzzywuzzy Tue 23-Apr-13 12:53:18

I got a khul, the mufti who married us also granted my khul, he didnt even suggest mediation when he heard my reason (ex was violent).

Probably the reason divorce is accepted if one is granted an English divorce is because in order for a divorce application to go thro the courts, both parties sign the divorce petition, signing the divorce petition is one divorce. Also as a Muslim one is meant to adhere to the laws of the land (if they do not conflict with Islamic law) and if the law permits a divorce then it is not unislamic, divorce is allowed in Islam, it's just that society makes it such a big deal about it, but only for a woman.

I've been told all sorts for seeking a divorce, however I remember the lady who approached the Prophet (saw) and requested she be allowed to divorce her husband on the grounds she could not stand him, he was fine she just did not like him and felt unable to be a wife to him, the Prophet (saw) did not make a huge deal about it and allowed her the divorce and asked her to return her mahr.
Forcing a woman to remain married is unjust, and cruel and form of zulm.

Cote has a point regards praying, when we go down in rukuh and prostration, bottoms are more obvious and it could be distracting ...

Regarding fasting, we eat before dawn, so the hunger pangs don't kick in till later in the day, also during ramadan as you're fasting continuously for the month your body gets used to it, I actually have to retrian myself to eat during the day as I just dont feel hungry during daytime for a while after ramadan.
I also try to fast every Monday and Thursday so my body is used to it.

We so absolutely do need more female Islamic scholars.

crescentmoon Tue 23-Apr-13 14:22:42

sometimes the khul/talaq is necessary or even better than the civil law. i suppose in the UK the sharia court deals with cases of couples who had a religious marriage but not a civil marriage. so because they were not married officially they cannot get a court divorce so the only recourse to dissolution of the marriage is by the mufti.

in the republic of ireland the law there only grants divorce after a couple have been separated for 5 years. so there were people who wanted to get divorced but had to wait those 5 years - no difference to shacking up with someone else but you couldnt marry them.

then the muslim community there asked the euro fatwa council if they should also have to wait 5 years to get the civil divorce before marrying again. and in that specific country those irish muslims were told that as long as they had the khul/talaq islamic divorce then they could remarry because the law wouldnt let them move on otherwise. but still people had to show official papers from a mufti saying they were divorced but its still a tangle in terms of what happens if someone dies within that 5 years before the divorce is granted does it go to the spouse or does it go to their islamic marriage partner. difficult situation but iv read fatwas on websites dealing with it.

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