Or is this woman dead annoying? (Dragon Mother article in Sunday Times)

[ragged]

Amy Chua article in the Sunday Times -- I can't link to the ST version, but I think this Wall St. Journal piece is good-as identical.

I'm in 3 minds about it:

1. It's just one persons's perspective
   
2. It's a blatent brag fest
   
3. It's factually wrong and perhaps even defamatory in so many ways. If 25% of humanity are ethnic "Chinese", they can't all be high achievers, can they?
   
   Related discussion here, too.

[MilaMae]

She maybe annoying but as I said on the other thread she also abused her children. Being Chinese doesn't make her behaviour acceptable here,the US or China.

Bullying a 3 year old into playing the piano and threatening to destroy her dollshouse,put her out in the freezing cold if she doesn't do it well enough is abusive in every language.

The article was just a woman bragging about how she abused her children,she shouldn't be allowed to make money from it. Very shocking.

[Lamorna]

Unfortunately she will suffer the consequences of her behaviour and so will her DCs.
If everyone followed her system it wouldn't work, only one DC can be top.

[poshsinglemum]

I was just about to start a thread on this subject.

Grades and piano concertos aren't everything are they? Poor chuildren. On the other hand; I do think that some western parents are far too soft. There has to be a happy medium.

No wonder so many poor young Hong Kong children commit suicide due to pressure.

She is abusive. And narcasistic.

[SarahStrattonsBaubles]

She really has no idea what an evil bitch she comes across as does she. Please tell me that's not stereotypically true of Chinese mothers.

And not every child can be top. Surely even the perfect Chinese mother can work that one out for themselves.

[JodiesMummy]

Well my stepmother is Chinese and puts ZERO effot into her son's education, he is 14 and barely literate and she couldnt give a flying fuck.

[inkyfingers]

i could never be that chinese mother - and I doubt any of us could begin that parenting style, but I do see some 'soft' parenting (that she calls Western) that is too accepting and not aspirational enough and not teaching kids about perseverence. Many parents believe that making a child do something boring, difficult is some sort of child-abuse and I'm looking out for wonderful middle-ground.

Any high-achieving person in whatever area has learnt self-discipline sometime. What a person does with their success/A*grades is up to them to take from the choices they've earned.

[onimolap]

Of course not all Chinese mothers are like this. And as the author says, you don't have to be Chinese to be like this (she singled out other nationalities with these traits - including the Irish).

Yes there are differences: deference to parents being an important one. Also there's an important one she doesn't mention - the nature of the Chinese language and the vast amount of rote learning required when you have to look-and-learn every single character. Perhaps it predisposes to a crammer/hothouse attitude?

I suspect her DD would have learned the piece of music after the same amount of practice, whether beasted out in mammoth sessions as done here or whether done over days or weeks.

It in an interesting example of how people 'normalise' their parents' actions and perpetuate them.

[JodiesMummy]

I agree Inky. I have acheived good grades and earned good money all my adult life and I think its down to my mother's high expectations of me. There is far too much namby pambying of children nowadays.

MIL was bemoaning the fact that my DD has a very strict teacher (she is only in Reception) the other day - who raises her voice and doesnt allow messing about. Im delighted quite frankly! No point giving over the impression that school is a dossing experience.

[poshsinglemum]

I think what annoyed me about the article is the way she looks down on western parenting or soft parenting as inferior.

There are so many parents who are convinced that their (normally extreme) form of parenting is the best way.Whether that be unconditional parents or authroitarian parents.

Let her dd be top in everything. So what? I bet the poor girl pays the price in other ways.

[Bingtata]

I think that there does have to be a middle ground, teaching your child that it is ok to give up if something is too hard is not good for their self esteem.

I agree with you JodiesMummy - DD has also just started reception and I am very pleased that she got the stricter teacher out of two choices, I think children need to be pushed to some extent because life is dull without challenge and I agree with the part of the article that talks about the positivity of parents having faith that their children can achieve something.

[stretchmummy]

Sounds like we have a sneaking respect for this "b*tch", sorry woman. Could it be that we all secretely feel that we should be pushing our children harder and are jealous that (so far anyway) her children seem to be doing well. Wouldn't we all feel so much better if they were drug-soaked, suicidal mother-haters?

[onimolap]

I don't think so: I'm a fairly "traditional" parent, and DH very much so. But neither of us want Stepford children, and I do want them to have friends and sleepovers, and to be in plays (even the year when he was 4th tree).

[Lamorna]

I don't have any respect for the woman! She is a nightmare.

[onimolap]

My last post was a response to stretchmummy's comment about sneaking respect.

[borderslass]

I was gobsmacked by her attitude to child rearing actually, bordering on abuse IMO.

[Asteria]

What a horror! I would far rather my DS enjoyed his childhood than to live like that. It would destroy him if I treated him in that way.

However I do agree in part with her point about Western parents sometimes championing mediocrity. My DS had a friend whose mother was very into first winners, second winners and third winners. Lovely for the children who didn't come first in whatever challenge that was set, but it really took away from the achievement of the child that actually won. It doens't hurt to teach our children that one must work for things.

[poshsinglemum]

Part of me admires her children's achievemnets and makes me feel that I'm a failure. My dd watches tons of tele, dosn't have a dad and we occasionally eat junk food. We couldn't fit a piano in this house for eg.

But bloody hell; the women supervises 90 mins music practice A NIGHT. She clearly
hasn't discovered mumsnet dosn't have a life!

I think that banning sleepovers is just bizarre and mean.

[Lamorna]

I think that DCs should be brought up to question their parents decisions, there are many on MN who need to be questioned!!!

[poshsinglemum]

Culturally the high achievement drive is probably fera of loosing face and ending up with a daughter like me one of those horrible western girls.

[borderslass]

Her DH doesn't seem to have much of a say does he though.

[Lamorna]

He tried his best but he has failed to protect them.

[slugz]

I expect my children to always get A's -- for effort. They know they must always try their hardest or i'll be disappointed. But they can't possibly match in ability.
Ds is very bright, lucky because pretty much everything comes easy to him. He's usually top in most things academic or sporty (not creative though).
Dd1 has always needed help with most things and has often been a long way behind her peers. That's just the way she is.
I'm fairly strict, but nowhere near this lady. If I adopted this regime, I suspect ds could be a very high achiever. But I believe he would be very unhappy, and I definitely believe that there's not much point in life if you can't enjoy it.
Dd though probably wouldn't be much different to how she is. She'd still be an adorable 'away with the fairies' sort. It doesn't matter how much we coach her in some things it's quite clear that her brain only works in certain ways. She actually tries harder than ds, but until that point of understanding is crossed (2-3 years later than usual) she hasn't got a clue what you're on about. You could scream at her for a year and she still wouldn't have a clue how money works for instance.
This theory that you can force your children to be identically good at everything is bull.

[HattiFattner]

Hmmmm....an ye, with all this knowledge, China is stagnating in terms of its scientific progress. The industrial revolution didn't happen, cheap labour is so plentiful, and most industry is carbon copied from the west.

This from a country where some of the greatest minds in history developed key knowledge in mathematics, science, agriculture, astronomy...

One wonders if, in pushing to excel through rote learning, and never allowing a child to question authority, the mind of a young child develops without the capacity for creative thought?

One of my DCs has the most valuable of traits - the ability to put concepts together in new ways. to make connections and associations. To think creatively. I think that straight As are all very well, but the ability to conceptalise and develop ideas is far more valuable. Our world depends on people having new, out the box ideas.

To my mind, the chinese method described here is cruel and not conducive to developing the whole individual - eg social skills are probably more important in business than ever before. Creative, innovative thinking, the ability and desire to challenge authoity and the status quo and strike out on a new, untested path is what as made the western economies rise.

[whoknowswhatthefutureholds]

She needs to find the middle way. I think chinese culture is fascinating. She definately has taken the confusianist traits instead of the Taoist way.