Appeals for secondary - thread to chat and exchange experiences

[YvonneCalling]

Morning

I thought I would create a space to chat/angst/commiserate/congratulate all those in the school appeals purgatory!

We have a date for our appeal - next Thursday, with our group hearing next Tues. We received the LA's case yesterday, so are ploughing through, trying to think of useful questions and comments.

Am I right in thinking that that the group hearing is the collective chance for parents to show the general case that more children can be admitted, and then the individual hearing is the time to say that your child should be at the head of the queue?

I would love to hear anyone's experiences of what these meetings were like, and also what sort of questions you were asked at the individual meeting, plus when you heard the outcome!

Anyone care to join me on here? Just to say hello, so I don't feel all alone

[PanelChair]

Yes (or at least, sort of). Stage 1 will examine all the general arguments for non-admission - school is full, overcrowding issues etc etc. Stage 2 will be for case by case discussion of each child, so that is your opportunity to highlight particular reasons why they would face "prejudice" (ie disadvantage) if not given a place. At many appeals, stages 1 and 2 blend together but where there are a lot of appeals for the same school it's quite common to separate the stages like this.

[Ingles2]

Morning Yvonne
I went through an over sub appeal for a state grammar last year, and won thankfully... Can offer large shoulders to cry on and sympathy.

[sur444]

Apologies if you are reading again I have posted on another thread.

Hi New to forum and in need of some advice please.

My son got none of his preferred schools (over subscription) and we rejected the one offered by Birmingham LEA because of distance and reputation. He didn't meet the requirements of the grammar schools and he is on the waiting list at two of the local schools. Last time we checked with the school which is less than a one mile distance away he went from 4th to 16th on waiting list so not looking good.
We appealed to the LEA on the basis of distance and all his friends are going there back in March. He is a bright child but he struggles with his handwriting so we had him independently assessed by a child physiologist who has identified him as having few learning difficulties. She has recommended him to be registered SEN (as he may have dyspraxia) and to be given more time on exams.
The local school does cater for children with SEN and we will be submitting the report to the LEA prior to the appeal. I wish we had done this before he done the exams as it may have helped, but is too late to appeal on the basis of him having learning difficulties?

Any advice on how to further pursue a secondary school place if we do not win the appeal would be grateful.
Thanks

[YvonneCalling]

Thanks PanelChair and Ingles. There are 40+ appeals for the school we want DS to get into, so I know I am not alone, but having said that, I don't know in rl any other parents who are appealing, so I do feel a bit lost.

PanelChair we have submitted quite a comprehensive appeal document, so I am wondering if at the appeal, we just say these are our main points x,y,z, and then what? Do people typically re-present their case again even if it is all down on paper? i am not sure that would be useful, as I assume the panel will have read all the docs. What sort of questions do you ask? Can appeals be quick and yet still successful?!
Ingles - can you remember any questions from your appeal last year, or recall when you were told of the outcome? Did your child know you were going to appeal?

[YvonneCalling]

Hi Sur444 - I don't have any useful advice for you, but hope someone comes along soon who can help. When is your appeal? Any idea why the waiting list place moved so much?

[prh47bridge]

The other thing to add is that any evidence you have that indicates a mistake has been made must be brought up at stage 1. If you leave it to stage 2 the panel may tell you it is too late.

How you present your case is entirely up to you. There certainly isn't any point just reading out your submission. I would briefly cover all the points, emphasising those I believed to be strongest. You need to make sure the panel has a clear understanding of the strong points in your case and that they don't get lost in a welter of minor issues.

Appeal panels ask all sorts of questions! They are independent and there is no list of questions they have to ask. They will want to make sure they fully understand your case and test its strength. But this isn't a cross examination. They know parents are likely to be nervous so they should act accordingly.

[Ingles2]

It's probably best that you don't know any parents appealing for the same school Yvonne... I know a few who acted a bit strange last year
You do re-present your case in front of the panel, you can either read your formal document, or another if you wish. We had another speech prepared that basically said the same thing, but with emphasis on slightly different things.
Our panel also asked us to summarise in 3 points, so be prepared for that.
Yes, Ds knew all about it,.. he was the only child in his primary who passed the 11+ but didn't get a grammar place, so it was hard to avoid really. And tbh, I think it's important they see you are trying your absolute best for them, even if the outcome is not one you want.
Questions wise, they wanted to know how he was going to get to school, how he was going to stay for sport / clubs etc as we were 3 miles outside the catchment last year... (we had been in catchment every other year though,) They also asked about pastoral issues,,, Ds has anxiety related OCD and is v shy... (was one of the reasons why we wanted the school)
Other than that, it was pretty quick.... we were one of only 2 over sub appeals but there another 50 who hadn't passed the 11+. Appeal was at the beginning of the week, we had the letter by the Friday. They told us 10 days though :)

[admission]

From the other side of the table, as I chair panels, I would say please don't all ask questions at once during stage 1 of the process. With 40 appeals, you potentially could have 80 parents there all asking questions, so it is a major task to keep order!
At the first stage where everybody is present, the presenting officer for the school will outline the reasons why the school believes that they cannot admit all those that are appealing. The first decision the panel has to make is whether the school have made their case that they cannot admit all those that are appealing for a place. With 40 appealing I would suspect that it is more or less a guarantee that the panel will say that not all 40 can be admitted.
The point behind asking questions to reduce the prejudice to the school is that when it comes to the second stage of the appeal hearing there are in effect two decisions to make. Do any appellants have such compelling cases to admit that they must be admitted to the school and secondly on the evidence that the panel have heard can the school admit some but not all the appellants. The more that parents can reduce the arguments that the school is overcrowded etc at stage one the more likely that the panel will accept that some pupils can be admitted.
So if the school's case is particularly weak and based on previous years, then the panel may decide that the school can take an extra form of pupils, so maybe 27 pupils admitted out of the 40 appellants. If the school case is particularly strong then only those that have an absolutely compelling case will be admitted (which might be none).
So you need to question the schools case at stage 1 but also have good personal reasons for admission to the school, to have a chance of success at appeal.

[PanelChair]

Not much that I can add to what Admission and prh47bridge have said.

Generally, the questions I ask - to both schools/LEAs and parents - are to test the evidence for the claims they are making. So if (say) a school says that the dining area can't cope with any more pupils at lunchtime, I want to know how many sittings there are, how many places at tables, how long the lunch break is etc etc. If parents say that Frank needs to attend the school because it has a better musical programme, I want to know what instruments he plays, what grades he has reached etc etc. However, it is so specific to the individual appeal that it's hard to generalise beyond that.

Yes, it is certainly possible to be quick and win. I've even chaired appeals where the parent hasn't turned up, it's all been considered on paper and the appeal has been allowed (I would not recommend that, though). Sometimes (not always) I think it is the parents who know that their chances are slender who spend longest presenting their case. I understand why that is but (going back to the previous example) if you are claiming that Frank is musical on the basis of playing the triangle in the infant school concert, it is better to do so very briefly and spend your time on the stronger elements of your case.

[YvonneCalling]

Thanks for all that valuable advice PanelChair, admission, Ingles and prh47bridge. It is really reassuring to hear from people who are so familiar with all the processes. I hadn't realised the panel ask questions of the LA - I thought it was up to just the parents to pick holes in LA case.

I feel happier about not going on and on in our individual hearing now, just reiterating the main points and then responding to questions. As I said, we have put together a comprehensive case; whether it is good enough remains to be seen!

It is good to get the impression that appeals panels are not scary gatekeepers, but genuinely on the side of doing 'what is right'. I think I had assumed they were on the side of the LA pretty much, and started from the position of not wanting the school to have to take more children, but from what you say they are truly independent? How are appeal members recruited then? I assume they are paid?

Is it common to have appeals of 40+ for a single school? I think they are being heard over six days, so wonder if the sheer scale of the process will mean it will take a while after the last appeal before we hear the outcome?

[BeingFluffy]

I also sit on an appeals panel. One school last year had 70 appeals so 40 is not that unusual.

Admission appeals panels around here are recruited by the local council, they advertise on the website and no, you DON'T get paid, it is entirely voluntary (at least in my Borough). You get sandwiches though if it runs over lunchtime and coffee!

We have some local Academies and they have to buy in the services of the appeals panel by paying the council per appeal.

Yes we are completely independent!

[PanelChair]

Appeal panel members are not paid! The most I have ever received is a sandwich and a bottle of water! I was recruited as a school governor with some relevant experience in my professional life, but my LEA also advertises for the job.

The panel has to weigh up the prejudice to the child in not bring admitted against the prejudice to the school and the children already there on having to take another pupil. We're not on anyone's 'side' - we are trying to find the outcome which is fairest and most reasonable for all concerned (on both sides of the appeal).

[YvonneCalling]

Wow - you're not paid? Then hats off to your altruism! It must be such a tough job, and all from the goodness of your hearts? Amazing.
I hope they give you sandwishes with naice ham then...

I am also surprised to hear that 40+ appeals for one school are not that unusual. Surely it must be hard to hear all those cases and keep a clear head?

[PanelChair]

We usually have an experienced and unflappable clerk to stop us getting muddled or derailed.

In theory, I think we can claim travel expenses but it seems (to me) more trouble than the cost of my bus fare. If we were paid, we'd be paid by the council. It wouthe one from the LEA's budget, but it might still give the wrong impression, that we are aligned with the LEA.

[PanelChair]

Argh. Stupid phone.

It would not come from the LEA's budget .....

[YvonneCalling]

I suppose that is where my assumptions came from - I assumed panel members must be paid to go through all the grief of hearing appeals, and that they were paid by the LA, therefore would be more 'on the side' of the LA than the parents.

It is very good to hear that they are in fact independent. Have you ever got grief from anyone on the LA side for decisions you have made, or do they accept with good grace when things don't go their way? Can they complain about you?

[PanelChair]

I have received one rather bizarre letter from a chair of governors, predicting the end of the world because a panel I chaired overturned an exclusion. On admissions, I have sometimes heard on the grapevine that a school is unhappy about a successful appeal but most I think accept (however reluctantly) that if they lost it was because they didn't deserve to win.

[VivaLeBeaver]

I've got an appeal tomorrow. For a state grammar.

Were saying that as dd is dyslexic but still passed 11plus we feel it is best school for her due to it's outstanding rating for SEN support in it's ofsted, homework support club, academic (non disruptive/distracting) environment. Just a bit worried we may shoot ourselves in the foot and the panel may feel a grammar isn't the best place for a dyslexic kid.

[VivaLeBeaver]

I feel sick thinking about tomorrow. So scared.

[YvonneCalling]

Well, from what I have seen, some chairs of governors can be a bit bizarre themselves...

Glad to hear that your work is mostly appreciated then. I still don't envy the scale and nature of what you have to do, but I'm very glad you do it .

[YvonneCalling]

Ooh, good luck VivaLeBeaver. It does feel so important, doesn't it? I am sure that most of our children will do fine wherever, but it is very frustrating seeing your child's peers get the schools they want, and, often for no 'good' reason, you are unlucky (for example you live 50 metres too far away or the allocation is random).

Hope tomorrow goes well. If the grammar school you want has a SEN unit, that does sounds like a good set up for your dd. Is the school she has been allocated to not able to provide that?

[VivaLeBeaver]

It doesn't have an sen unit, but it does get an outstanding in it's ofsted for sen provision which her allocated school doesn't. Plus they have a teacher led homework support group 4 evenings a week that kids can drop into which the other school doesn't have.

[PanelChair]

Viva - Any panel will be open to argument about why a particular school is the best fit for a child and why the child would suffer prejudice if not given a place. Where you need to have a clear message for the panel is why they should admit a child who (as I assume) did not reach a mark in the 11 plus high enough to get a place. Panels can't discriminate against children with dyslexia or other additional needs and (depending on the facts) I imagine that you could argue that passing the 11+ is testament to your daughter's ability to benefit from the curriculum.

Good luck.

[VivaLeBeaver]

Panel chair, no she scored well enough for a place. The school has a set pass Mark for the 11plus and then allocates places on distance. We only just missed out by a few hundred meters.

[PanelChair]

Ah. I wrongly assumed you were in that limbo of having passed but not with a high enough mark to get a place. So, I think you have an even better case to present now, because there's no implication that your dd isn't of the same academic ability as the children already admitted.

Of course, much depends on what the school say in resisting the appeal, but it sounds to me as if you've got a decent chance. Give it your best.