Just curious - how many muslims are on mumsnet?

(998 Posts)
Galvanise Sat 01-Dec-12 00:21:53

Hello/Salaam,

I know mumsnet has a wide and diverse population and I tend to recognise some MN usernames as regulars. Just intrigued to know how big/small a community it may be.

Of course, I respect that there may be those who do not wish to even identify themselves for various reasons - which is fine too.

I am not asking for 'religiousness' levels or any vital stats! Nor is this a muslim-only thread or an 'no non-muslims' thread.
If you really wish to tell me that you are not a muslim, that is fine too smile

<Waves enthusiastically to all muslims and non-muslims> smile

nailak Sat 09-Feb-13 14:31:00

little ducks, that sounds great mashallah, where is it? what is it called? my 4 year old wants to start alif baa taa class school but my older dds class is full.

I am going to go to Murtaza Khan talk today on hereafter at 313 katherine rd after maghrib, anyone up for it?

LostAndNeverFound Sat 09-Feb-13 19:21:07

Salaam everyone

I haven't been on in ages but I have been reading. My husband is back now so it's been all go.

I haven't really got anything constructive to add, just wanted to show my face!

One thing I did want to ask you all though is what your views on alcohol are, not in drink form, but in perfumes, mouthwashes, hand sanitisers etc. Do you still use these kind of products or refrain from them? I used to go twice a week to my local mosque with my sister in law, where the imam 'tested' out his new books on us (ie we went through them and discussed them in length). And he said as long as it's not consumed (swallowed) it's ok. But where do you draw the line? I know some people who won't touch anything with alcohol in the ingredients, then I know girls who liberally spray perfume all over themselves (including on their hijabs hmm ).

HardlyEverHoovers Sat 09-Feb-13 20:10:28

Salaams lost, nice to have you back!
I will not eat/drink alcohol in any form (despite my mums protestations that 'the alcohol cooks off in the cooking process', when trying to get me to eat something she's poured half a bottle of sherry in) but have perfume, and would use alcohol rub etc. Would only take medicine with alcohol if it was TOTALLY necessary.
I think I formed these rules based on learning something about it, but have completely forgotten what I learnt, sorry sad

LostAndNeverFound Sat 09-Feb-13 20:56:03

That's my view as well hardly. My mum having a go because I didn't want to eat her christmas cake, which was fruit cake loaded with brandy, that had been 'cooked off' was a hard argument to have. Especially as I was 'depriving' my children of cake!! What annoyed me most was she'd say to my youngest DD who's 2, 'do you want some of grandmas cake' every day we saw her, so cue tantrum from DD when I wouldn't let her have any! Mums hey!

I only ask this because when I was visiting my father in law whilst he was in intensive care we had to use the hand sanitiser that was just labelled 'alcohol', and it got me thinking what people's views on it were.

Thanks hardly smile

HardlyEverHoovers Sat 09-Feb-13 21:09:46

Oh dear lost poor you on the cake issue! It took my mum about 5 years to stop offering me every alcoholic drink under the sun before she finally suggested orange juice!
I just heard today about quite a nice normal woman, who went on a works night out, got extremely drunk, drove home, got caught, and will now lose her job and heaven knows what else.
Alhamdulillah that we are saved from such things.

LostAndNeverFound Sat 09-Feb-13 21:25:34

I'm hoping she'll get the hint soon, like I said before I cover a lot of it up with my family, but things like this I'm openly strict about. I'm glad I'm not the only one experiencing this though! She's very hot on the gelatine case now which is good.

That's awful, alcohol can ruin lives so easily. I may have some issues with my husband but it makes me very grateful when I hear and read all these horror stories about people's husbands staying out all night on the booze, coming home in the early hours, sleeping their hangover away all day etc.

I used to drink quite heavily in my teens and my unexpected surprise, DD1 at 19, was very sobering and I quickly cleared up my act and reduced my intake dramatically. I was actually relieved when I met my now husband, as I had a valid excuse not to drink when going out with my friends - out of respect for him! Then when I started reading about Islam, alcohol and pork were the first things I gave up.

BlueOrange Sun 10-Feb-13 00:00:04

Mashallah, always great reading about you inspiring ladies who were not born muslims so had to make some very difficult decisions. In a hospital, i would use the alcohol rub to prevent infecting others and also avoiding any infections myself. Though, this is just my opinion and not taken from any religious text. Would be interested to know if that is ok though.

LostAndNeverFound Sun 10-Feb-13 10:56:20

Salaam blue

With regards to the things I have had to give up, for me personally it was an easy decision to make, the more I read the more determined I became to do the right thing. I gave up alcohol, going to pubs, pork, non halal meat, regular trips to get my nails painted, my wardrobe (loved fashion and wore some erm rather revealing stuff!), and a few other things all with ease. The only difficult part about it was telling my family and trying to justify it to them grin.

I too would be interested to know if there are any texts regarding products with alcohol in - crescent or nailak will be along soon with something I'm sure!

crescentmoon Sun 10-Feb-13 11:07:23

salams my sisters,

theres an opinion that if the wine is in a small concentration even within food, so small that it cannot intoxicate, then it is permissible.

seekersguidance.org/ans-blog/2009/06/07/using-perfumes-deodrants-after-shave-with-alchohol/

but thats in the hanafi school. in the shaafiee school whether in huge amounts or a teeny drop you cant eat it. when i bake i only buy vanilla flavouring that doesnt have alcohol in it - i really like the north african shops that sell the vanilla sugar powder thing!
someone actually asked if eating beer battered fish was permissible, the answer is abit similar to the opinion on 'a dash of wine' in cooking! (actually even a dash of wine in hanafi madhab is impermissible too)

www.shafiifiqh.com/is-it-permissible-to-eat-beer-battered-fish/

as for denatured alcohol i think most people say that it is permissible. including the shaafiees.

www.shafiifiqh.com/alcohol-denat/

i think the rules on not drinking alcohol are for the benefit of low status women with low bargaining power. some threads i read on MN make me want to get up and do two rakah salatul shukr that i dont have to deal with that crap. i have the most respect for women who can hold their own, wallah i dont think i would if it wasnt for Islam making all those things haram for DH. i feel our family unit benefits far more from DH being a practising muslim than me being a practising muslim. and because of that i personally dont have to waste 'bargaining' power on negotiating whats an acceptable amount of money for a husband to piss up the wall drinking/ having a flutter/ smoking weed/ time on the computer surfing porn/ look but dont touch at lap clubs. because its all haram. jeez louise. theres far more debate on the hijab whether it is obligatory or not than on the quite unequivocal statements on adultery/ promiscuity/ drinking/ gambling etc.

women can also be alcoholics and they also have a devastating effect on theirs and other peoples lives. i think of following the rules on drinking as God's will against God's will. millions of people can drink responsibly - and i could have fallen in that group - but millions of people also have alcoholic addictions - and if id fallen into that group then the dysfunctionality of that lifestyle wouldnt just affect me but would ripple outwards. i may have a genetic predisposition towards alcoholism, or drug abuse theres research now on that. but because i follow the will of God 'do not drink' then I never go beyond musing on it.

crescentmoon Sun 10-Feb-13 11:21:53

sorry sisters, i started saying

"theres an opinion that if the wine is in a small concentration even within food, so small that it cannot intoxicate, then it is permissible"

i meant to write alcohol not wine. in the hanafi it is open on alcohol being in food but follows the same line as shaafiee on wine (sourced from grapes or dates).

LostAndNeverFound Sun 10-Feb-13 11:30:27

Thanks crescent, not read the links yet but that's what I was hoping for! I personally find it easier to avoid alcohol consumption completely - like the beer battered fish, my mums cooked off fruit cake, food colourings etc. It makes it more clean cut. And I don't come across those things in every day life so it's no biggie.

I too feel like it makes our family unit stronger that my DH isn't out all hours doing as you've said. Although our big issue was me finding porn on his memory cards and weed hidden in the house when he was just away. I was oblivious to it all. I knew he wasn't practising but I certainly didn't expect that and it knocked me for six as I'm so completely against those things. However since his father passed, he has a complete new outlook on life, and for the first time ever in his life he's fully practising. I honestly have never known him make such an effort and he's very remorseful. Only time will tell if we can overcome it though which makes me sad. Anyway, enough of my marital problems!

Thanks for links crescent.

LostAndNeverFound Sun 10-Feb-13 11:34:54

Oh and another thing, coca cola was found to have something like 0.0000001% of alcohol in it (don't quote me on that figure), so I now don't drink it. Which is slightly extreme as it goes against what you just quoted crescent! You're right though, it won't intoxicate me, but I didn't drink it that much anyway so it's just another thing I've given up that I won't miss!

crescentmoon Sun 10-Feb-13 11:51:50

my dear everyone has marital problems. up days when you think this man isthe best thing that ever happened to you and down days when you think 'God was either rewarding him or punishing me'. (something my mum used to say alot wink ). mashaallah you have a good relationship with your in laws and they seem more on your side than DHs. cultivate that both by keeping and deepening the relationship with them and also encourage your DH to respect them and keep company with them. inshaallah you won't need it but if something bad happens they'll come down on your side to psyche him out.

my brother wanted to leave his wife last year, they had a young daughter and she was pregnant but they kept having lots of arguments and both were behaving terribly tbh. a love marriage by the way, not arranged. but my mum went on my sil's side and told him if he left her she would never speak to him again, and my sisters and i also piled in and i think collectively, along with their talking to each other, they decided to give it another go. it was stressful, i bet he wished a 1000 times we would butt the hell out or take his side but her family trusted our family not just him. i miss not having that support with my in laws but mashaallah there have been crucial times when DH'S relatives told him to lighten the hell up alhamdullillah!

LostAndNeverFound Sun 10-Feb-13 12:32:29

Mashaallah such wise words. He came clean to his mum about everything when I told him what I'd found. He said she made it perfectly clear that they were on my side, and that if anything happened they would support me and not him. So it was down to him to put right all his wrongs and pray not only for Allah's forgiveness but mine as well. Alhamdullilah I do have a brilliant relationship with my inlaws, so I know I'll never be alone. His poor mum has just lost her husband of 30 years, and she's worried about me!

So far though he seems to be on the right path now, he's only been back a week so it's early days. Inshallah we'll make it through this and come out the other side stronger.

Sometimes it takes these things, like with your brother and sil, to realise how much you truly love someone, warts and all!

nailak Sun 10-Feb-13 20:35:47

with regards to the alcohol, i go by the hadith which says if something is intoxicating in a large amount then it is haram in a small amount, so stuff like coca cola is not intoxicating in a large amount, but stuff like nutmeg is.

nailak Sun 10-Feb-13 20:38:51

Praise be to Allaah.

We need to talk at length about the issue of perfumes that are said to contain cologne or alcohol. If the percentage of alcohol is very little, we say that it does not matter, and a person may use them without any concern, such as if the alcohol content is 5% or less. This does not matter.

If the percentage of alcohol is very high, so that you can detect it, then it is better not to use it except where it is necessary, such as for sterilizing wounds and the like.

In cases where it is not necessary, it is better not to use it, but we do not say that it is haram. The most we can say is that this high alcohol content is an intoxicant, and no doubt consuming intoxicants is haram according to the texts of Islam and the consensus of the scholars, but is using it in ways other than drinking it permissible? This is open to speculation, but to be on the safe side we should not use it. If you say that it is open to speculation because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “O you who believe! Intoxicants, gambling, al-ansaab [animals that are sacrificed on stone altars for idols], and al-azlaam [arrows for seeking luck or decision], are an abomination of Shaytaan’s handiwork. So avoid (strictly all) that (abomination) in order that you may be successful. Shaytaan wants only to excite enmity and hatred between you with intoxicants and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allaah and from al-salaah (the prayer). So will you not then abstain?” [al-Ma’idah 5:90-91], then we look at the general meaning of the phrase So avoid (strictly all) that (abomination), and say that alcohol should be avoided in all cases, whether it is drunk or applied to the skin, or used in some other way. If we look at the reason why, Allaah says, “Shaytaan wants only to excite enmity and hatred between you with intoxicants and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allaah and from al-salaah (the prayer). So will you not then abstain?” We may understand this to mean that only drinking it is forbidden, because applying it to the skin does not lead to that (enmity and hatred, etc.). So, in conclusion, we say that if the percentange of alcohol in this perfume is low, there is no need to worry about using it, but if it is high, then it is better to avoid it unless it is for a need, such as sterilizing wounds and the like.

peacefuloptimist Mon 11-Feb-13 16:05:36

I have some questions about how do you combat your nafs, pride and desires. I am struggling at the moment to deal with feeling like I am being taken for granted and the resentment that creates. On the one hand I feel like when I do something it should be for the sake of Allah swt and to get His pleasure but at the same time I feel a lot of anger internally that I try to suppress but sometimes comes lashing out when I feellike I am being taken advantage of. I think sometimes especially with people closest to you trying to live up to the ideals of Islam on how to be a good wife, daughter, sister or even mother can lead you to ignore your own desires and needs. Is that the right approach to put serving others above your own happiness or is it a form of self oppression?

nailak Mon 11-Feb-13 16:39:15

I don't know sis. I see these sisters who look after in laws and still get abuse from their families, and I think why? these are strong, independant sisters who are active in community and charity work etc and you wouldn't see as being oppressed. I don't know how they do it. When you talk to them they say if you expect thanks from people you will always be dissappointed, I do it for the sake of Allah. Or they say I do it as it is my husbands fardh and as he works to look after us, I take on the responsibility in order to allow him to fulfil his fardh our of care for his akhirah and love for my husband. I could never do it.

I think it depends who is doing the oppressing, and it makes a big difference if your husband is on your side. When it comes to your own family actions are the biggest form of dawah, consistent actions, showing them how you becoming practising in Islam has made you a better person and how that would benefit them.

One sister told me her FIL gave her so much grief, she used to look after him, and get no thanks, the other family in laws wouldn't help, and talked badly about her, her and fil never got on, but when it came down to it when fil was dying in the hospital he was asking for her saying "where is my daughter".

there is a hadith which says "the believer who mixes with the people and is patient with their harm is better then the believer who doesnt mix with the people for fear of their harm" (paraphrased)

We we will always sin and people will always hurt us.

When it comes to parents "if your parents force you to do shirk don't do it, but accompany them in goodness" this shows even the worst of parents you have to be good to them.

peacefuloptimist Mon 11-Feb-13 17:12:46

Thanks naikak. Your response really makes sense. I feel like sometimes our communities and families expect women to live up to such a high standard which is admirable. We should strive to be the best mothers, daughters, wives, neighbours and generally human beings we can be but the reward of being excellent fathers and husbands is not sought after by men. Does that make sense. Should you strive to be like Khadijah when your husband is not bothered about being like Muhammad Pbuh with regards to how he treated his wife? I went to a parenting course a few weeks ago in east London done by a sister who was a trained counsellor and it was so good people were asking her to do it for men as well. But the funny thing is when we discussed it as a ggroup many of the sisters said even if she did do it for men they probably wouldn't go because being a good parent is not such a great priority to men in some of our communities as it is to women. This is despite the fact that the Prophet saw said the Best of you (men) is he who is best to his family/wife. I struggled to get my husband to listen to any of the brilliant advice she gave that day and anything he did listen to he picked holes in.

crescentmoon Mon 11-Feb-13 22:40:28

Salams dear peaceful, I really get where your coming from. Long post tomorrow but just to say not alone. I really get where your coming from, naila really liked your last post did not know that hadith about remaining among people and their hurts better than avoiding people and their hurts. Jazakhallah khair

CoteDAzur Mon 11-Feb-13 23:09:47

"In cases where it is not necessary, it is better not to use it, but we do not say that it is haram. The most we can say is that this high alcohol content is an intoxicant, and no doubt consuming intoxicants is haram according to the texts of Islam and the consensus of the scholars, but is using it in ways other than drinking it permissible? This is open to speculation, but to be on the safe side we should not use it."

I am just continually amazed by the stuff I read on here smile

Question: Have you heard of lemon cologne? Do you know that many millions of Muslims have a tradition of offering lemon cologne to guests, to freshen up upon arriving in their homes? For the most part, that cologne is made up of... alcohol.

If you were on a diet and weren't eating chocolate, would you also refrain from rubbing choc butter cream on your skin? You wouldn't. Because you have a head, and the brain in it would tell you that there is no way you can gain weight from rubbing chocolate on your skin.

Similarly, intoxication is a bad thing in Islam and Muslims are not to be intoxicated. So you don't drink alcohol. However, you know for a fact that it is not possible to get intoxicated from rubbing alcohol on your hands (which evaporates within seconds anyway), so why are you saying "We should not use it"?

nailak Mon 11-Feb-13 23:40:43

^^ that is true. Can't fault it. Can often fault Islam q and a's understanding of things.

HardlyEverHoovers Tue 12-Feb-13 08:14:51

I think Cote has a point though, I can't remember the details but I remember an Islamic scholar being asked about this issue in a talk I went to and he pointed out that even the very laptop he was using would contain alcohol because sythetic alcohol is so widely used. So maybe there is a distinction between synthetic/natural alcohol?
Also, I remembered something about alcohol actually being considered 'filth', so in the same category as bodily waste, which would explain why you wouldn't want it on your skin, but that seems by no means agreed upon, and I found this:
http://spa.qibla.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=1448&CATE=3

which explains a bit about it.

crescentmoon Tue 12-Feb-13 08:23:11

the islamqa thing is about non medical uses right? thats consistent with the part of the world its based in, the majority of gulf arabs use perfumes that dont have alcohol in. non alcoholic perfumes and the attars (non alcoholic concentrated oil perfumes).

whereas the millions cote referred to who offer lemon cologne as hospitality are likely to be hanafis or one of the other madhabs. i get both positions. its got nothing to do with chocolate i dont think thats a good analogy. this is to do with impurity. similar thing would be animal fat or specifically beef fat in cosmetics for hindus. is it impure just to eat or impure to have contact with also? if its something that absorbs into the skin would you wish to be nourished by it? actually alcohol doesnt bother me in that way but i do feel that way about pig fat in lipsticks and skin care products!

actually the early muslims experimented with alcohol to find its uses away from ingestion. they were the ones who used distillation

www.history-science-technology.com/notes/notes%207.htm

jabir ibn hayyan

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C4%81bir_ibn_Hayy%C4%81n

HardlyEverHoovers Tue 12-Feb-13 08:29:20

peaceful optimist I'm sorry you're feeling this way. I would say that to continue fulfilling your role is ultimately the best thing to do, but if you are not finding happiness in it you need to find that happiness somewhere. I recently learnt about the concept of 'self care', where you make sure you do something nice for yourself at least once a day. This doesn't need to impact upon the other duties you have, only need be a small thing, but I think as women we have to stop waiting for our husbands or others to do nice things for us, or give us permission to relax and do something nice, and do it ourselves. Mine are things like doing a bit of sewing once DS is in bed, having a nice bath, early night with a good book, seeing friends for coffee and cake etc.
I understand what you mean about why should you strive to be Khadija when your husband isn't striving to be Muhammad (pbuh). As another sister said a while ago, if we lived with men like that there would be no struggle. I once experimented with treating my husband the way I felt he was treating me (generally nice husband but with some issues which I had a long previous thread about!). He didn't get it and it made be feel like rubbish.
I think you do need to hold on to why you are doing it, which is for Allah as you said, and therefore see it as worship. Some of us will never achieve great spiritual states through extra prayers etc etc, so Allah gives us opportunities to worship him in different ways so we acheive the state that he desires for us.
But also I realised that it was for myself I was doing it, for the sort of person I wanted to be. By treating my husband how I perceived he was treating me, I became small and petty, and didn't like myself. This seemed the very worse outcome.
Whatever your marriage is like, don't let it dictate the sort of person you become, and by being the best you can be you can have a positive impact on your marriage as well.

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