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Mumsnet Discussions:
Bereavement
: Fraser's thread for bereaved mummies: Death leaves a heartache no-one can heal - Love leaves a memory no-one can steal
(958 messages)
Good evening FM I'm sure Frasers thread will be just perfect, the title is so appropriate and so true.
I was just thinking tonight how wonderful it would have been to have my two identical little boys running round and it breaks my heart. Will come to you for advice Shabs about how to deal with lost twinship when I am ready if that is okay.
Night night all, holding you close in my thoughts.
Morning Afternoon all Cheers Shabs, not sure when the twinness will hit him to be honest. Someone at nursery asked if I would tell him of course I will. I don't want to labour it but want him to know so think will just answer questions as openly and honestly as I can and ensure there is always a pic of B up somewhere in the house so he is not a stranger. I have a DVD of both of them at an ultrasound to show him when he is older. I can't watch it myself at the moment but will be a time I am sure when I can again.
Hiya Charley. We have always had pictures all around the house of our boys. I introduced them all to my grandson last week!! Danny has always suffered with 'separation anxiety' - hates being in the house by himself, frets about everybody all day while he is at work etc etc. He hates the dark and especially is petrified of clowns! Dont forget he is almost 27.
When he saw a phsyciatrist a few years ago he explained to him that having been a twin can throw up all kinds of problems if your twin dies. He reckons that if it is handled properly in your family and you know about your twin and why it happened it can be made a lot easier for you to cope with it.
Dan has good friends who are twins and he is fascinated by them.
I think that open, honest talks are the best way. When Dan was about 2 we used to play 'who is that in the photograph.' He loved showing me his twin pictures and would kiss Gareth. Now, I am delighted to say, he often will 'forget' Gareth and Matts remember days.
G likes company as well, A could be left on her own a lot more than G can, often wondered of that was his twinness.
I managed to get some pics of the boys together in the hospital, they were very helpful and brought both boys out of special care so they could be christened and we could cuddle them together before they were separated for the final time so hopefully G can look at these. I also did the DNA testing and found out they were identical as they had two sacs/placentas as always thought they were non-IDTs. That was the hardest thing swabbing B in the funeral home. I could barely see as I was doing it. I just felt I should find out everything I could for G though. I think one of the hardest (although aren't they all) things for G might be the remember day is his birthday.
How is everyone doing ? That twin thing must bring such an added worry for you both .
I know how hard we have found it because Harry was our first so our two other boys never got to meet him but have had it explained to them . Well the oldest (5 in Jan) anyway . I think most of it they just pick up along the way looking at photos etc . He did really struggle in the summer and started getting really upset about it which was heartbreaking but he has settled down now thankfully .We got Harrys special toys out of the loft and went through them with him and let him play with them and after that he seemed to feel more included about the whole thing and was a lot better . I had to try really hard not to freak out when he was playing with his stuff though
Morning love.....we have sleet in Bolton - delightful!!
Tommy has a massive box of Lego passed down from his brothers with a lot of his own in it. When you look through the older pieces they have Matts teeth marks in them where he has pulled them apart I sometimes search through for them. Tommy does the same and I say 'dont do that you will damage your teeth.' When I really want to say 'dont put your teeth marks over Matts.'
The sleet sounds horrid Shabs , we had torrential rain here all day yesterday it was grim .
It is hard getting the balance right isn't it ? I really don't want my two boys to think they are not as special as Harry but in some ways they just can't be . The best I can hope for is they grow up feeling as loved as he would have done .
I know exactly what you mean! I think the love we have for our children who are not physically here turns into a deep longing for them. An overwhelming desire to see them again.
So the love we have for our children who are still with us is a different love but I think an equal love. I am sure your children will grow up knowing you love and adore them.
morning girls ,i think your right about ourlonging for loved ones,i love my grandkids,but my god i miss jayden so much dd bought home school photo ,all three of thm together and i just couldnt help but think whos missing x
big hugs shabsxxhope you are feeling betterx i went to funeral yesterday of a lady i worked with for few years ago at two different hospitals,fantastic hilarious lady who died so suddenly ,aged 57.they queded outside and it was same vicar who buried jayden,it brought so many memories ,came home house empty and had a good old cry ,today i have all 3 girls,but boiler on blink so gas fire on and am bloody nervous as amelia walking now,dh cant see why im so stressed out ......ill cope but roll on omorrow when its fixedxxx
Just watching Rolf Harris talking about his relatives in the first world war. i just know he is going to sing 'two little boys' oh yes, here we piggin go!!! Thats my twin boys song Rolf if you dont mind. xx
I'll join you if that's ok. I think Shabster sent me the link to your old thread?
I'm really sorry but I'm not familiar with any of your losses, I'm sorry.
I'm sure I will though as I get to know you.
If you are not aware, I'm Oliver's mum. My son that I last Monday through suicide, he was 20 ( his 21st ) is on the 20th Nov.
Obviously we are still in the shock and denial stage, but I am getting some comfort from stories from you that you can function, speak, eat, get dressed and eventually one day smile.
We have yet to buy Oliver and I'm sure I will need your help through it all.
But want to offer my help to you all soon, maybe we can help each other.
So glad you came. Wish we didn't have to meet like this but so very glad you came.
We have a wonderful bunch of mums on here...really lovley girls. We are all struggling down the same crappy path of bereavment and grief.
When it is our childrens birthdays or their 'remember days' (anniversarys) we have started lighting a candle to remember our lost children.
Up to now we have shared over 3,000 messages between us.....we all try to keep each other going and have been known to be very drunk and dance and tell rude jokes
Stay around my love, we will walk the crappy path together xx
Thank you love. The 'double edged' sword is the fact that our first grandchild is the image of all four of our sons. My DS1 has become the most loving daddy (he is almost 27 and so is his lovley partner Emma)
Life is good really but there are times when I still sob and grieve intensly for my sons.
Only on this thread can we laugh, cry, sob, giggle, act daft, wail and smile all in the same day....because we all know how each other is feeling. It doesn't matter what the age of our 'babies' is....it just matters that we stick together.
Good night Ever - I am going to turn in for the night. I really hope you come back tomorrow when all the ladies are here. Holding you close in my heart and mind....take care xxxx
I have been in bits yesterday and this morning . I had heard bits about that poor 17mth old who was killed at the hands of his parents but I have tried to avoid reading about it . Well last night we watched the news and it was there in all its awfullness . I can't get him out of my head , I just don't get how anyone could do that to a wee boy . I suppose because Harry was 14 mths it has hit a chord with me . I would have done anything to keep him and they just didn't give a stuff .
Oh sweetheart. I watched the news as well last night and it had a very similar effect on me. We live in a strange world. In my opinion we need to bring back capital punishment in this country. Poor, poor little man
Thanks Shabs , I would normally be a real liberal about capital punishment and say it should never ever come back but I have to say in this case I would gladly do it to them myself .
Sorry Everlong I didn't say hello and welcome to you .
How are you doing this morning ? I remember that feeling of not thinking you could possibly have any more tears left . I can vividly remember sobbing and sobbing and no tears being left and then drinking water and them falling again . It was like I had to top up the liquids .
Hi Everlong I am pleased to hear you are feeling a bit lighter this morning . A bit of my story for you Harry was our first child and he was of course gorgeous . He never cried which always worried me but the drs and health workers always told me how lucky I was and not to worry about it but I really believe he just didn't have that internal fight for life that we all need . Basically on the 1st dec he had an awful cold and I thought he had a chest infection so took him to the emergency dr . I was told it was just a cold and to take him home to rest . That night he seemed to get worse but because he was still sleeping the dr told me he must be fine and not to worry but if it was worse in the morning to ring back . That was the sat night and I stayed downstairs with him sitting upright on my chest as it seemed to help his breathing . He died in my arms at 8 on the sun morning . He never woke up . They said it was an acute asthma attack which just means that his lungs closed and they don't know why . He was 14mths old and not a day goes by that I don't wish that I had done something different . It was the worst time of my life and if there is anything harder to deal with then I have no idea what it could be .
We have gone on to have two more boys who are so full of life and so different to their brother . Even when they were babies and screamed for food or just for a cuddle I loved it as I knew they were ok .
I never thought I could be happy again and I still do have my down days but the times in between the darkness are so much better now than I ever thought possible .
OK here goes......I had twin sons, Daniel and Gareth in December, 1981. Gareth was quickly diagnosed with severe heart problems. Two large holes in his heart and a valve that wasn't working at all. In July, 1982 I woke up to him screaming the place down. I took him into our bed and cuddled and calmed him down. Myself, DH and Gareth snuggled down and pinched another 10 minutes sleep. When I woke up he had died in my arms. Dont need to tell you the mayhem and shock of that morning. The doctor said all babies are born with an extra valve that closes when they take their first breath. That valve had stayed open with Gareth and was the only thing that kept him alive. We were questioned by two police for hours and hours, individually and together.
In June, 1984 we were blessed, beyond words, by Matt. Danny became a big brother again and the world was a good place to be. Matt was cheeky, funny, adored the girls and loved his big bro. Just before his 8th birthday he was allowed to play out of the garden for the first time. We lived on a quiet estate and I thought he would be ok. I closed the door, walked into the kitchen and before I got back into the living room he had been knocked down by a flat back lorry. I ended up crawling under the lorry and,I'm sorry, but I cant describe the sight that met my eyes because it is too horrific. He was dead on arrival at hospital.
For many years it felt like the world was against us. Our home was re-possessed, we had severe financial problems. Our marriage fell apart - although we are still together now and have been married for 30 years. In 1997 (when I was almost 41) another little boy came along - Tom. He has filled a massive aching space in our lives and is a joy.
In June this year Danny and his partner presented us with our first grandchild - Lewis Daniel. We are so lucky.
The only thing that kept me going for many years was the words - 'ONE FOOT IN FRONT OF THE OTHER AND DONT FORGET TO BREATHE.'
Shabs I remember those words too . I am always thankful for my time on TCF
We also had to be questioned by the police but thankfully they were very kind to us . My husband always says that he was glad he had gone out to work that morning as he is convinced if he had been here he would have been treated more harshly than I was . I doubt that is true but it is something that really scared him at the time .
I don't have the words to even begin to comprehend what losing Matt must have been like after Gareth . I am so sorry you have had to go through this twice .
Our interrogation was truly awful. I kept begging them to contact our local childrens hospital to ask about Gareths problems. Eventually, after about 3 hours, a nurse came in with a fax explaining everything. They simply stood up, put everything in their brief cases and walked out of the room. I began to think that I had done it in those 3 hours.
Remember the lady Sally (I cant remember her surname) who was imprisoned for the alleged killing of her sons? I only remembered all those things when I saw her released from prison.
I often wonder how we have survived these last 26 years - I have no real clue.....I used to think my heart would break in two - literally or my head would explode.
Danny was, for many years, my reason to live - my brave surviving son. Every word of this song describes me and him. We have been known to sing this on karaoke
Shabs that is truly awful that they were like that with you . I remember Sally as well . I always said to people at the time that I would have confessed to doing something because you blame yourself anyway so its only that one more step .
It is a physical thing the heartbreak isn't it ? The actual proper pain is awful , never mind the emotions that are just horrendous .
Dont think I did leave Dan alone or out of the house for many years Even now I only find peace when I know he is in work and safe. I cross Tom over the main road near High school and cross him back at night. I worry and fret about Lewis all the time. If you talked to any neighbours or friends they would say that I am 'calm, laid back, and I have 'got over' loosing my two sons - thats because I am the biggest fraud of all time the 'Great pretender' and I do love to find the funny side in most things.
I too am a complete fraud , it works for most of the time . I love this poem (especially the last line )
Ask My Mum How She Is
My Mum, she tells a lot of lies, she never did before, From now until the day she dies, she'll tell a whole lot more. She used to tell the truth a lot, but now it doesn't matter, I died and went to heaven, now her life is all a-shatter’d.
Ask my Mum how she is, and she'll say "oh yes, I'm fine!" She wants to beg, "Please help me, ‘cause I’ve lost that boy of mine". Ask my Mum how she is, and she'll say, "oh I'm alright", If that's the truth then tell me please, why does she cry each night?
Ask my Mum how she is, ’cause she seems to cope so well, She didn't have a choice, you see, nor yet the strength to yell. You think you know the feeling, but in fact this cannot be, For even though you loved me, it was not as much as she.
She’ll smile and she will tell you, "It's OK, God has a plan” But then she’ll turn away and cry, ‘cause she can't understand. You tell a joke, she giggles, but in fact she’s not OK, She wants to share the joke with me, but it won’t be today.
I watch her here in Heaven, her distress disturbs my peace, Will someone please take care of her, and thus take care of me? "Some day you will feel better", "Yes, I will, one day", she lies, She knows this will not happen until the day she dies.
Ask my Mum how she is and she'll say, "I’m doing good", She cannot tell you how she feels - oh, how I wish she could. Ask my Mum how she is: "I'm ok, I'm fine, I'm coping.” For God's sake, Mum! just tell the truth and say your heart is broken.
Ask my Mum how she is: she’ll reply "I'm well, and you?” I'll shake my head in Heaven, ‘cause it simply isn't true. She'll love me all her life, just like I loved her all of mine, She'll lie and try to hide the pain, pretending that she's fine.
Her carnival is over, she's stepped off the carousel, But to save you feeling bad she'll say, "Yes thankyou, all is well". My Mum, she's not gone mad quite yet, but oh, so very nearly, Don't ask her how she's doing; ask her how she’s doing ...really.
I’m watching her from Heaven, and I cannot hug from here, If she lies to you, don't listen, but please hug her, hold her near. On the day we meet for ever we shall smile and I'll be bold: "You're lucky to get in here, Mum, with all the lies you've told!!"
What wonderful, true words. I have never read that poem before. Are you ready for this TW?.....are you ready?????? That made me cry like I haven't cried for years. There. I said it!!. I'm so relieved that we all have each other on our thread.
Everlong, so nice of you to ask, we love to talk about our littlies. so many people seem to want to avoid talking about them.
Well here goes are you sitting comfortably? Two years ago on Saturday we had a scan which told us we were having twins, I dn't know why I just thought we were. DH was a bit in shock and thought the sonographer was really good as wherever she held scanner it picked up a baby. DOH. Everything looked perfect.
Really happy and excited and went for a private nuchal scan as told blood tests not effective if twins. AT this scan it was obvious to all in the room that T1 had a bulge, he looked like he had a football on his lap. He had an exomphalus/Omphalocele. They called a consultant in on a Friday night who basically told us were a 1/3 chance of Edwards/Patau/downs + heart problems. We may lose one or both babies, we may be advised to terminate one baby to give the other a better chance.
Got an NHS referal and had an amnio and all chromosone problems ruled out. <<sigh of relief>> Next hurdle 20 week scan as may be heart defects.
20 week scan all okay, both babies going to make it but have a plastic bag to put DT1 in if born before get to hospital to keep his tummy sterile.
24 weeks approx looks like heart defect after all so referred to heart specialist who then says no just jumbled up scan as some of Bs insides on outside no heart defect whatsoever.
Happily progress to 25 weeks when huge fluid gains (polyhydramnios) suggest I could go into labour at the drop of a hat. Admitted to hospital for daily monitoring as we knew B would need hospital attention immediately after birth so seemed to be best place for us.
At 31 weeks fluid looked like it might need draining as in words of my consultant I was "gigantic". At 31+4 waters just popped and kept on coming, flooding bed and floor.
DT2 was in distress so had an emergency section, DT boys were born 3/4/7 just before 9:00 am both looked fine and seemed to be breathing on thier own. DT1 3lb 10oz DT2 3lb 0.5oz, both looked perfect even the exomphalus did not look too bad.
Whilst in recovery I was aked if they might be identical (always told they weren't as 2 sacs and 2 placentas).
Back on ward Paeditric consultant said they were struggling to put tube down to help B with his breathing did we consent for camere in ENT surgery, obviously we did. Went so see B and thought he looked fine.
He came back mid afternoon and told us B had no trachea and only limited openings to his lungs. He'd contacted GOSH and they had said nothing could be done as airways can not be artifically made. Basically his condition was not conducive to life.
I asked if the DTs could have a photo (see photo on my profile) together as wanted this for DT2 (G) and arranged for hospital chaplain to christen B. Both boys were brought out of SCBU and to my room where me DH and the boys all had a cuddle and they were both christened. DT2 went back to SCBU whilst DT1 died in our arms.
After this I had the boys DNA tested by the multiple births foundation to see if they were identical and they are. I have a perfect little replica of my missing man running around and getting into mischief. It is both a comfort and a source of grief knowing what he would be like.
I find people seem to be well at least you have one baby but this is sometimes harder as like Shabs I suffer with twin envy. People also seem to think as I knew he would need an operation it didn't matter that he died as I should have expected it.
I am sorry I think this has turned into more than a little summary but just you asking and me typing helps Everlong. Even though I am sat here in tears reading Shabs and TravWils stories it helps to know life goes on. It is different (I will never be the same again) but it goes on.
If you have a profile page I would love to see a picture of Oliver if you can manage it some time in the future.
The first of everything is the worst, then you brace yourself and can put a brave face on, but sometimes your grief just smacks you arund the chops and goes ner ner ner ner.
I am horrified TW about the little baby I would gladly do to them what they put that baby through.
CM Thank you for telling us all about your boy . I do think losing a twin has its own special problems and to have to cope with the usual struggles of a new born at the same time as losing a child must have been an extra struggle for you .
I think for us in some ways because Harry was our first we could really let ourselves go and grieve completely and utterly and for a few months at least we were allowed to just be .
I realise that this is going to sound crazy BUT I feel so much better. I had forgotten how to just cry. It is wonderful to be able to write about our 'lost' children. I am so proud of my brood and, apart from my two close RL friends, I very rarely tell their story to anyone.
A good sob is generally a good thing I find . I always sleep better after a cry as well . It is good to be able to let it all out sometimes , and definetly not crazy .
Have you had to tell any RL friends yet ? I really struggle with people who don't know Harrys story . I am sure most of the people who know me through Jamie who is at school now have no idea about Harry . I think I tend to keep my distance from new people and making new friends as I never know when to have "that conversation" .
<slips quietly through the back door and whispers>
Iliketomoveitmove, I just saw your message to me on the other thread but can't post because it is full. Thank you too for your thoughts. It has been a tough year but we are getting through it. Glad that you got through the day and that all the 1st anniversaries will be out of the way soon. It is my friend's wedding anniversary on Monday which will be a difficult day so all her bridesmaids are taking her out for a lunch to mark the occasion and offer her support.
<creeps quietly out but not before shedding a few tears for all your lost little ones and your stories>
I know TW you know when people ask how many children you have I never know what to say. Should I say 3 and one is dead or 2 and deny his existence. I usually make a judgement call on who it is, where I am and whether I will see them again. Tis hard. Having the DCs helped me pick myself up but also didn't allow me time to grieve I think. In my mind I think you must have had it especially hard.
Have fun in Asda Shabs , I was supposed to be going to tesco 2 hours ago and I am still here
I think the friends at the school have just assumed Jamie is my eldest because they knew it was the first time to playschool and the infant school . I find people never really ask me outright but when they do I can just about manage to answer them truthfully and then I get "that" look from them .
He is still a big part of our family and want people to know about him but without freaking them out .
Right I have really got to go and do some stuff . I have stopped crying now at least so hopefully I won't scare any small children out there . xx
OMG Ever - the day before his 21st birthday. We usually light candles in our homes, on our thread,when it is one of our childrens birthdays or 'remember' days (anniversary) I would very much like to light my candle on both days in respect for you and Oliver. Its just a small gesture but it is our way of showing our love and thoughts.
Hi Everlong, Welcome to this thread, I'm so sorry we have to meet like this, but you will find everyone here so wonderful and supportive.
It will be six months since my DS Noah died on the 4th December. I have some photos of him on my profile. He came into the world 3 weeks early on the 26th March and 10 weeks to the day he was gone. I put him to bed at about 1.30am on the 4th June and I woke up suddenly at about 5.50am (he would always wake about 5am, but that morning he didn't) and we found he wasn't breathing. We phoned 999 and my DH tried to save him but he was declared dead at about 6.40am. He had smiled for the first time the day before and had always been such a healthy baby. He was just perfect in every way, so placid, and easy and my DD who is 3 just adored him.
We are still awaiting the inquest but the post mortem said it was Sudden Unexpected Infant Death. They couldn't find anything wrong with him which just makes it even harder to come to terms with.
I too will light a candle next Wednesday in memory of Oliver.
Hi Girls, I'm in floods here having read all your stories, there are so many things I want to say to you but just can't seem to find the right words at the moment. Sending much love to you all. xxx
I hope everyone is feeling ok this morning . I am definetly feeling a bit better today . I think I needed yesterday , a good cry is good sometimes . Just to let it all out .
Still havn't read all your stories, I'm sorry. A friend came last night and we talked for a long time. They are important to me and I need to need to read them properely.
All I can say now though that you sound the bravest of ladies. When my boys were babies I dreaded anything happening to them and obsessed constantly so I think you are all dignified and very brave. Then when they grown big and strong you have a different worry I guess...
The vicar is calling in this morning, we have hymns to pick - have not a clue!
The first thing that popped to mind was ' All things Bright and Beautiful ' because it's so well known, but then it didn't seem so out of place, because Oliver is bright and so beautiful! So maybe we will have that.
Thank you for welcoming me and I hope I can give you ladies some help and support very soon, please excuse me whilst I get through this next week then I will be hopefully more responsive.
Everlong please don't worry about wether you give support or recieve support . Just the fact that yesterday some of us wrote our stories on here at your request was a really helpful thing . It was nice for me to learn more about others children and I love telling people about Harry .
We had All things bright and beautiful and it did seem fitting . Our vicar was great and went through a lot of hymns he thought could be appropriate and he did seem to put a lot of thought into it . I hope yours is just as compassionate
You know that you can have songs played that Oliver liked dont you? Most people nowadays seem to have at least one song played that isin't a hymn. Just check with the Vicar. Im going to have 'Dont stop me now' by Queen at my funeral - no matter how old or young I am when it happens.
We also taped the service , just audio tape and I know it might sound a bit odd but I was really worried that I would be in too much of a state and I would forget what had happened and what was said .
I have only ever listened to it once but it does give me weird comfort knowing it is there .
morning girlsx hope everyone ok ,i dont know what to say just big hugs to you all, as most of you know i lost my grandson to cot death 1st december 2006, and the girls on here have been lifesavers ,in helping me and my dd get through it. jayden was 75 days old,a lovely little smiling man ,he had a few little problems feeding but never in a million years did we think hed leave us, he died and our whole world changed,to watch your child go through that hell is heartbreaking. big hugs to you all brave mummysx
Oh Hazy that is my biggest fear. I don't know how you have coped with the loss of Jayden and the obvious heartache of your DD. You must have felt helpless at times. It is clear that you are a close family but I take my hat off to you.
Well Oliver did like music, but it's all the rap type and somehow it wouldn't seem right in church lol.
I think I'm picking ' Make you feel my love ' by Adele, an old classic by Bob Dylan.
I keep playing it over and over in my car and the words seem just right for me. His dad is picking another song.
After talking it over with my DH this morning I've decided that it might be right to go where Oli was found and lay some flowers and say goodbye.
Apparently hundreds of people have been to lay flowers and stuff and being his mum I feel I should as I might regret this long term. It is such a beautiful place I hope that I can find some peace, maybe.
Another friend has been around with 2 meals for the next day or so. Cannot believe the kindness of these people. The old saying is so true ' you really know who your true friends are '
Going out today to buy his pj's and dressing gown, you could never imagine that before all this that you would have the strength in your legs to do such things but you do.
I just listened to that song on Youtube and, in my opinion, it is 100% perfect - absolutly beautiful. Do you mind if I link it onto this thread - if you would rather I didn't then no worries at all.
I'm a bereaved mum, but last night I wasn't, for once, in floods of tears for my own son but for poor, battered Baby P.
I'd avoided most of the story the previous day, but last night caught the news and I just could not cope with being told that when paramedics found him he was on the floor dressed only in a nappy and had been dead some time.
My prematurely born son was 8 days old when he died in my arms in Feb 2007 of a bowel infection and I'm so angry that another woman could have done this to the child she was blessed with, so angry.
But since nobody else on the bereavement forum I usually post on has made any mention of this I thought to myself surely some other mothers must be feeling the way I do? And that's how I found this thread.
I'm feeling better for having done so, though TW's poem had me in tears. And I'm glad I'm not the only one who's had to run from the room as soon as Rolf H starts singing Two Little Boys. I had twin boys and used to sing that song to them when they were in the NNU. (Not exactly appropriate, I know...)
One thing that really strikes me from all the posts here and other I've read about twin loss is just how often it is boy pregnancies that have a fatal outcome. I know statistically they are more at risk, but it's just how much more they are at risk, and I've been convinced for some time that a lot more needs to be done to monitor mothers carrying boys. (I had a traumatic pregnancy but did not know what I was having, and my consultant never seemed that bothered even though he must have known.)
Anyway, my best wishes to you all, and to Baby P, rest in peace you poor little soul. Rest in Peace.
Kitana - I identify totally with your words and thoughts. I have wept buckets for Baby P. This morning,on our local news, it said that a baby and a toddler had been found stabbed to death and their mother has been arrested We are in Bolton and this has happened in Manchester.
I lost one of my twin sons as well. At 7 months due to congenital heart defects. I didn't even know I was having twins until 10 days before they were born. This was in 1981 before scans were commonplace.
Please keep returning to this thread.....a wonderful bunch of ladies all walking the same crappy path and trying to help each other along the way xx
It was going to bed last night and then turning on the radio this morning and hearing the story about the two murdered children that tipped me over into thinking I had to find out if there were other bereaved mums out there really troubled by this story. Of course it's hit millions of people, but it's just that when you have watched helplessly as your baby died, when all the docs and nurses who cared for him did their best, the contrast with this poor soul is just so utterly marked as to be almost unreal. Only it's very real, and unfortunately I heard more details on the radio that I really wish I hadn't.
Such wickedness. Such suffering.
On a personal note, I was staggered to read your story. I watched my father die an horrific, needless death so feel especially cursed at times. But to lose two children as you have, and the way Matt died, must have tested you to your very core. I am so sorry.
Re scans - yes, it's incredible how technology has advanced. And yet the infection that killed my son has a very high mortality rate; the stillbirth rate hasn't come down much in decades and babies' sudden deaths are unexplained. We've still got a long way to go.
of course I will. I don't want to labour it but want him to know so think will just answer questions as openly and honestly as I can and ensure there is always a pic of B up somewhere in the house so he is not a stranger. I have a DVD of both of them at an ultrasound to show him when he is older. I can't watch it myself at the moment but will be a time I am sure when I can again. 
x 
