asking for it?

[antoinettechigur]

Just been thinking about this turn of phrase and wondering what it really can mean.

Follows on from lots of lunchtable discussion at work of a current rather high profile case in which some men are being accused of raping one of a group of women who were at their house after nightclubbing (just keeping it a tiny bit vague as trial not over yet. Most of my colleagues were analysing the woman's reported behaviour and discussing whether she had "asked for it" by getting into a vulnerable situation. When I asked "what, she wanted to be raped?" the responses were along the lines of "Oh of course not, but you know...". Nothing very specific. Another colleague joined me in the suggestion of questioning why these discussions/reports always focus on the woman's behaviour, not the man/men's in the situation.

So what does it all mean? What do people mean when they say a woman was "asking for it"?

Well, thought I better start a thread as I always turn up late to the interesting discussions these days

It's a very widepread thing. I started a thread a while back when I was asked in a PSHE lesson to talk about the signals girls send out when they wear certain types of clothes, in the context of personal safety. It sat very uncomfortably with me to promulgate the message to 14 year olds.

@ what you were asked to do with teh students fallenmadonna. Truly that is appalling.

antoinette i think when people say it they don;t mean it in the sense that the woman wanted to be raped. More in the sense that "if you play with fire, you're going to be burned" and that given her behaviour she should't be surprised what happened. That type of thing.

Wrong, obviously.

I suppose it's also a sense of "well if she goes around behvaing like that (drinking, dancing, whatever) then what does she expect".

The answer of course is that she expects not to be forced into having sex with someone she doesn't want to have sex with, but for some reason that answer is rarely given.

Everyone at school thought I was being unreasonable. And a bit mad. I have a reputation now

But what didn't they understand about the problem you have with it TFM? I mean when it's explained it's quite obvious that the emphasis for personal safety shouldn't lie in girls wearing demure clothing, only travelling in packs and never being out after dark. Surely?

You would think. Apparently not.

And why is 'asking for it' so rarely applied to stupid things men sometimes do? It's not really very clever to stagger home alone late at night through a rough-ish area, pissed off your head, with loads of expensive bling on, and your Iphone and Ipod on show and your wallet sticking out of your back pocket. Men who do this quite often get mugged or beaten up, but no one ever seems to say they were 'asking for it'.

I am not at all saying that anyone who is drunk and looks wealthy deserves to be mugged or assaulted. Nor do I think that a person who is gobby with strong opinions deserved to be thumped, but sometimes being a bit careless or taking too many risks can have bad consequences - it just annoys me that the idea of it being your own fault only ever seems to be applied to women who get sexually assaulted.

Well, that's what I was trying to call people on ImSo. It is this way of half saying something (woman who wears short skirt and goes to the home of relative stranger is complicit in her own rape) that annoys me. People who think that won't come out and say it (in general).

Hideous phrase and truly a strange idea.

I heard a discussion on the radio about this recently (in the context of how harshly women judge other women who have been raped).

A contributor to the discussion mentioned some research which suggested that one reason women might take this attitude is because it makes them feel safer because they don't do the things that the victim did, a false sense of security to be sure, but something that made them feel as if they had more control over their own lives and the sexual threats they might face.

No source given for the research but interesting?

In the interests of fairness when I read the OP and was writing my response I realised that I have heard the phrase " they were asking for it" used in other situations, ie someone getting punched after saying something out of order about someone's girlfriend, someone else who was an alcoholic and always collapsing in the gutter getting mugged/arrested, other people who have behaved badly getting barred from pubs and so on.

The difference is that in all these other cases the person who "got what they were asking for " was pretty obviously doing something wrong and likely to end badly.

When a woman is raped, her clothing and state of inebriation for example cannot be compared to that - the implication is that she was doing something wrong. Going out and havign a drink and a laugh or whatever is not doing somethng wrong.

I think what I don't get about this 'asking for it' comment is that it is based on the assumption that a woman is more likely to appeal to rapists if she is wearing a certain outfit and has been out to a certain place.

That seems to be a very dangerous idea, because we don't really have a good idea what sort of women, if any particular sort, appeal to rapists. So it is lulling women into a false sense of security- making them believe that a certain outfit lowers their risk of being raped. If women are being asked to do anything to prevent rape, then it would be better to get them to think about how to spot dangerous male acquaintances, so that women can avoid such men.

This idea that there is a particular "sort" reminds me of something that I often wonder about.

When women who are over about 50 are attacked it is reported in the papers in a very different way to younger women. Ditto there seems to be a divide between children and post-pubescant ages.

Is the outrage reserved for very young and older victims because they are percieved to be more vulnerable and that is why everyone gets upset?

Or is it that people can understand that women who are in their fertile/sexually active age groups get attacked but not how anyone can be sexually attracted to children/old women?

Because in a way the outrage reserved for the elderly victim implies that in some way a sexually active 15yo is "fair game".

IYSWIM? (I hope so and no-one gets offended - I have just always wondered about this)

Not that over 50 is elderly, just that attacks on women who are likely to be past the menopause are reported differently.

"So what does it all mean? What do people mean when they say a woman was "asking for it"?"

Well, if they thought about it for a moment, what they're saying is 'It's a man's world, they're all natural rapists and can behave as badly as they like, it's up to women to keep out of their way.

This is as insulting to men as it is to women, but it's said all the time - rather than that men should STOP FUCKING RAPING!

I can't help thinking though that everyone is responsible for their own safety - as far as possible - and if you put yourself into a situation where you don't know WHO you are never mind WHERE (ie very drunk), then you are partly responsible for any trouble that comes your way. Much like if you are pissed beyond belief and walk onto a motorway. If you elect not to be in control of yourself, you cannot complain if it all goes tits up.
I don't think this is the same as "asking for it", and besides rape is about power and control (as opposed to the uncontrollable urge when you see a woman in a low cut top).
And most rape incidents are committed by someone known to the victim - what they were wearing is usually irrelevant.

"It's a very widepread thing. I started a thread a while back when I was asked in a PSHE lesson to talk about the signals girls send out when they wear certain types of clothes, in the context of personal safety. It sat very uncomfortably with me to promulgate the message to 14 year olds."

I should think it did! Were you not asked to talk to boys about not making assumptions? Again, it's put upon the girls - who do not do the raping - to take responsibility for boys behaviour. Again, it's assuming that all males are likely to rape, boys will be boys, they cannot possibly be expected to be responsible for their own behaviour. If you girls insist on your freedom to wear what you like, go where you like, when you like, you have only yourselves to blame for the consequences.

God, they're still peddling this to 14 year olds? Have we made no progress?

"Much like if you are pissed beyond belief and walk onto a motorway." Yes, but a car will hit you by accident - men don't rape by accident. You're still absolving the rapist of all responsibility.

"Oh, NO! Please don't run me over!"

"You're on my motorway, it's my bloody motorway and I'm GOING to run you over - even though you said NO - and it's ALL YOUR FAULT!"

And everyone is responsible FOR THEIR OWN BEHAVIOR.

A car will only hit you if you drunkenly walked onto the motorway. Funnily enough we do not absolve the driver of all responsibility.
What about if you can't remember whether you said yes or no - because you were too drunk?
Is that responsible?

"If you elect not to be in control of yourself, you cannot complain if it all goes tits up."

Since when did not being in control of yourself become punishable by rape?

(Sorry, Gay40, sounds as if I'm picking on you - no offence)

Yes, they are. I'm glad you agree

It's not punishable by rape, but actions -> consequences. Some people are hazy on that connection

"If women are being asked to do anything to prevent rape, then it would be better to get them to think about how to spot dangerous male acquaintances, so that women can avoid such men."

Women don't do the raping - why should they 'be asked' to prevent it?

Rape is not an issue of women's behaviour, it's an issue of men's behaviour. Surely, it would be better to get men to think about NOT BEING DANGEROUS!

I've posted this before, but it seems appropriate to repost it here:

girlwpen.com/?p=1729

Sexual Assault Prevention Tips Guaranteed to Work!

1. Don't put drugs in people's drinks in order to control their behavior.

1. When you see someone walking by themselves, leave them alone!

1. If you pull over to help someone with car problems, remember not to assault them!

1. NEVER open an unlocked door or window uninvited.

1. If you are in an elevator and someone else gets in, DON'T ASSAULT THEM!

1. Remember, people go to laundry to do their laundry, do not attempt to molest someone who is alone in a laundry room.

1. USE THE BUDDY SYSTEM! If you are not able to stop yourself from assaulting people, ask a friend to stay with you while you are in public.

1. Always be honest with people! Don't pretend to be a caring friend in order to gain the trust of someone you want to assault. Consider telling them you plan to assault them. If you don't communicate your intentions, the other person may take that as a sign that you do not plan to rape them.

1. Don't forget: you can't have sex with someone unless they are awake!

10. Carry a whistle! If you are worried you might assault someone by accident, you can hand it to the person you are with, so they can blow it if you do.

And, ALWAYS REMEMBER: if you didn't ask permission and then respect the answer the first time, you are committing a crime - no matter how 'into it' others appear to be.

Gardenpath, I don't think it is women's responsibility in any kind of moral sense. I believe it it the responsibility of rapists not to rape, and for men who are not rapists to work to create a culture in which rape is unacceptable.

But we should explain to young people what the warning signs of a dangerous man are.