Thinking of leaving H due to 'emotional affair'

[loves2walk]

I have posted here twice before about my suspicions that my H was having an affair. Since we moved to a different city almost 2 years ago our relationship has changed and we've been through a very stressful few months. I have no evidence that he did have an affair but there was an admission of a mutual attraction between H and the suspected OW one night (which he told me about himself). They then continued to spend time together out of work (but often with other work people) getting very drunk etc.and going to football together occasionally on a saturday. I was really threatened by this but my concerns were dismissed by H and so I put up with things that worried me when I should have dealt with it by discussing boundaries etc. and being assertive.

However, I feel he has now 'come back to me' and wants to be let back in. I think their 'affair' is over.

BUT he is still texting her and emailing in a friendly, bantor sort of way and just today he lied to me about something to do with her. I can access his blackberry so see messages between them though he doesn't know this. This 'lie', while over a relatively innocent thing, is bothering me so much today as I think it is evidence that they have secrets from me.

I have spoken with a Relate counsellor who understood my desperate need for 'evidence' but said (as people here have) that I don't need evidence if I feel he is having an emotional affair that is enough.

I'm now seriously thinking of leaving him. This is a massive deal though as my home town is a long way away, a flight away, and DSs would have to change schools and start afreash when DS1 already did that 2 years ago. So I would be moving a 9yr old who had moved schools/town at 7yrs already. That feels cruel to me and I'm worried will cause real distress to him. I don't want to stay here as I was completely new here 2 yrs ago and even though I have built up some really good friends through the DSs school, they are friends of our little family unit of 4 - not my personal friends IYSWIM. And no family support here at all.

Also without evidence, I will be seen as the one breaking up the marriage, surely and that really bothers me. That I will have to tell family and friends the whole sorry story and hope they can understand why the emotional affair was enough reason to take such a major step of breaking up a family.

I feel in so deep with this dilemma but I cannot imagine how I can forgive my H the ongoing deceit and 'let him back in'. I could have maybe forgiven infidelity if I was given a chance to, but I'm not even being allowed the luxury of deciding that.

[IsGraceAvailable]

I know how I'd feel about that, but am leaving it to you & other respondents - you're pretty good at figuring things out properly, iirc.

Re moving the kids: 2 years is quite a long time in a child's life, and it's not at all unusual for them to change schools a few times. It could be a worry if they had landmark exams coming up, but yours are still at a flexible stage.

My family moved every 2 years. Although my childhood did me few favours, none of that was to do with moving house. We all developed good friend-making skills due to the frequency of changing school. If your DCs hav problems about it, there are loads of good books to help you assist them with transitions like this.

[nigglewiggle]

I think you need to discuss this with your DH and perhaps with a Relate counsellor if you already have one. It sounds like you have put up with a lot and in the circumstances no-one should blame you for making the break. Children are very adaptable and they would cope with the change, though it will no doubt be difficult. But, you need to tell your DH how you have felt and what you are considering, it might just convince him to lay his cards on the table.

[loves2walk]

Grace - whats iirc? sorry!

Niggle - I have talked to him about it last week. It was awful. I told him everything about my suspicions, how my love was him was being chipped away by this, how I am happier when he goes away and that I was fantasizing about being on my own. He was upset, went from being hurt and offended that I was suspicious - to being angry about it all. He is terrified I will leave him and take DSs away, I can see that. That is why he stopped 'affair' I think. He is now being open, wants to go to relate together etc.. But there are still lies, but I can't tell him yet that I can see the lies as I need to see as much as I can.

But we're heading down different paths here

[nigglewiggle]

I can see that. It doesn't look good, but do you think Relate would be worth trying as he is willing?

[nigglewiggle]

(IIRC is - If I remember correctly)

[loves2walk]

Oh yes of course, thanks niggle!

We are trying Relate together next week. My relate counsellor was so good I am hoping he will get a reality check about his behaviour. But I am wondering now if I am being duplicitious - is that right word? I will be joining in with Relate while all the time being dishonest myself - in that I can see his blackberry and am continuing to snoop. And that I am building up this plan in my mind of how to leave - surely that means I am not entering the counselling openly despite expecting him too. I did tell the counsellor I could see his blackberry and she is able to keep that confidential which was a relief.

[loves2walk]

Thanks Grace, I can see that 2 years is a lot in a childs life. But DS1 was very anxious before our last move and stopped sleeping well - infact started bedwetting. Double incontinent kind of bedwetting which was so upsetting for him. He is on the anxious side probably like me, so I'm worried it will make that worse.

But my parents would help as we would move near them and he adores them and is totally relaxed with them.

This to-ing and fro-ing of thoughts is what my life consists of nowadays, there is no break from the what-shall-I do stuff.

[WhenwillIfeelnormal]

Loves - so glad the counsellor validated your feelings. It must have been a huge relief for a RL person to do that.

Tell us more of your conversation with H last week.

[menopausemad]

He is not being open with you if he is still hiding things!

I would perhaps put off making a description until after some relate as he has agreed to go. BUT being open and trustworthy does not mean hiding things and he has to understand this! He also, I think, needs to commit to your marriage and in the process of doing so, totally stop all communication at all with OW. At the very least she is not a friend of you as a couple and he cannot afford to let anyone like that into your relationship right now.

He has a long way to go before you can trust him and feel safe within your partnership he needs to understand that. On the face of it he sounds willing to try, would he read anything do you think? 'Just good friends' might be a good place to start, alternatively Andrew Marshall's new book about rebuilding trust is very good. www.andrewgmarshall.com/

[loves2walk]

Hi WWIFN - yes it was a huge thing. She said I wasn't going mad which helped for a start!

H said he couldn't believe I was bringing it all up again. He was taken aback that it was 'still an issue' for me. He thought it was resolved long ago. Why was it still an issue? When I had no evidence to present him with, (am certainly not going to give away my dirty secret that I get into his blackberry), so no evidence, he just said 'there was never anything going on' etc.

He said I was right to trust him to go on football trips, that he didn't mind if DS went, they were not exclusive. He said they have nothing in common except work and football so he has nothing to talk to her about.

After few hours, he was terribly hurt and offended that I don't seem to trust him. I turned it round and tried to address double standards. I can't even remember what he said to that. Nothing. Just rubbish. He has an answer for everything and yet no answers. I almost feel I need to take notes on what he says as I forget afterwards. Wierd. But there was complete denial and frustration from him.

[loves2walk]

Thanks menopause - I am reading 'just good friends' myself right now and it rings huge bells for me. I would like him to read it so maybe will suggest that once I'm finished.

He would not like it though as he is so convinced he has done nothing wrong.

[loves2walk]

Oh just remembered big part of conversation was me saying the lack of honesty and trust would be the end of our marraige, NOT the lack of faithfulness. That the thing that was damaging 'us' was him not being honest and if it all came out that he had lied to me, after all this protestation of innocence, there was no way back. Ever.

I think he flinched at that point, but I'm not sure. I did think he stopped for a second and was worried. But then the denials started all over again. He thinks his arguement is watertight, he must have got OW to promise never to tell so he feels 'safe' in their deceit.

That is my theory anyway.

[citygent]

you should get your own back!

[loves2walk]

no, have no thoughts of revenge right now. Am too sad and worried about my kids.

[WhenwillIfeelnormal]

Loves, so are you saying there was no tenderness or sorrow coming from him, just defensiveness and anger? I suspect the reason you cannot remember his reply to the double-standards question was because you got a load of nonsense and obfcuscation.

I think the counsellor sounds great and I'm so very pleased that she sounds on the ball. Has she read Not Just Friends? This counsellor will I think, prove helpful in explaining to him that he has behaved badly and that he has got nothing to be defensive about. That it was always an unsafe friendship to continue and that he would have felt exactly the same had the positions been reversed. In an ideal world, it shouldn't take a third party to have to validate your feelings, but as you know, I think this goes right back to his old marriage.

I've often asked you about what he says about the way his marriage ended and what he feels about infidelity as a result. In the absence of an explanation, I suspect he is one of those people who believe that infidelity is okay in some circumstances. I wonder whether he has been bargaining with himself all these years that he wouldn't have been unfaithful if he'd been happy etc. when as you and anyone else who's read that book knows, this is an excuse.

Is there any way you can expose the recent lie without letting on about the Blackberry?

The fact that the counsellor knows about this too might help her to expose it in her sessions with him.

I think it would be worth going back to basics with the counselling and get her to explore his attitudes to women, fidelity, secrets and lies.

I would also really recommend he reads the book. If I had to guess, I'd say his initial reaction might be derisory because it is American and the scenarios are not always easy to identify with, but he should focus on the Rachel and Ralph story most of all - and answer questions honestly about his attitudes to fidelity. It would also be worth looking at his attachment styles.

I would also be optimistic Loves. I think this is actually the opportunity you have been waiting for. I think you will get to resolve a lot of your inner turmoil through this process and at best, heal other grievances in your relationship too. His anger, his untidiness, his selfishness, his need to "win" an argument. All of these things, that you have been withstanding for years, have come into sharp focus now that the catalyst of infidelity has reared its head. You are changing - and although this is a painful and confusing time, this is a good thing, I promise you.

[loves2walk]

Many many thanks whenwillI.

He had no tenderness the first night I brought it up. I talked for a long time and he was frustrated and a bit cross. I told him that for months he had felt no empathy or care about my feelings and should have put himself in my shoes. The second night we talked again he was more loving and sad. He was going through a tough time with it and said 'I can't believe I have hurt the person I love most in the world'. I think he was feeling sorry for himself and I consciously decided not to prop him up like I usually would do. I just nodded and watched him.

Then we had the weekend and he was loving, tender, really engaged with kids and entering into activities as though we were equals. Usually I take responsibility for 'managing us all' and he does what is asked of him IYSWIM. This was different, very involved. Like, I'm back and I want to play again. So as you can imagine, I'm totally conflicted about this. On the one hand I loved it, we were close again, hugging etc. and I just adored watching the kids loving the interaction. But on the other hand, I think you shouldn't be able to have your cake and eat it and let me away with thinking I'm some mad woman all these months.

SO, on sunday I looked on blackberry for any exchanges over weekend. Nothing so that was good. Then scrolled down a bit. (BTW I feel a bit uncomfortable putting all this 'out there', but don't want to keep it all to myself as I really do think I'm going crazy with it all, without support. So I suppose I have to say it even if will get me 'found out')

So, I scrolled down. The morning after we had had the first discussion there was an email from him to her with header 'want to talk?'. No text in body. It could have been a work thing but with these there is usually lots of detail and text. So a bit odd. Then the next night during our second late night discussion I left the room in an unresolved way, with things hanging in the air and went to bed at 11pm. She had sent him an email earlier in the evening about a work thing. BUT he replied at 1103pm with initially a reply to work things and then 'Iv a meeting - goodnight!'

So is he sharing stuff about our relationship problems with her? Or maybe I'm reading too much into it? But since reading that on sunday night I have gone cold on him again and can't face him. Then I had my counselling, felt a lot better, now he's agreed to go too and is playing jolly H role while I am eaten up inside.

I can't remember stuff, because I can't do this confrontation thing. I grew up in a very quiet, book-ish type family with parents who were very loving, would rarely argue and taught me through action that you don't judge people, and you find the best explanation of their behaviour if their behaviour is odd. A lovely calm environment but I think it has left me scared to express negative emotions and certainly unprepared for H who was brought up in a busy, noisy household with a father who beat him. His mother was powerless to stop the beatings. The siblings are still noisy, banter flying around, challenging each other and obviously comfortable with this.

I'm afraid I don't get the optimism feeling any more. Though I would love to think this could be fixed. But how could I forgive this level of deception, particularly if the deception is only admitted to as a result of counselling rather than H having the strength to own up voluntarily? Or how could I forgive the fact that he would rather see me in pain than own up, when I am nearly begging him to be truthful? How can one go back from that to trusting someone?

It was so long ago that we discussed his first marriage I can't really remember his explanation of infidelity. But I can see how he would be the sort to feel this was acceptable in a bargaining way. He might say that as we have different levels of sex drive, he is just doing something about his increased level which would never threaten the love he has for me. And surely her availability was a big factor, especially if she was offering no strings-fun rather than any big shake-up or threat to marriage.

Sorry so long! DFidn't realise that bad until previewed and now can't see what to take out. Understand if that is just too long to read and digest!

[catwalker]

loves2walk - it's totally unreasonable for your husband to pursue a relationship in any form with another woman which you feel is a threat to your marriage.

I wonder, with the blackberry thing, whether next time you ask him if he is still in contact with the ow, and he says 'no', you could ask him to prove it by showing you his blackberry there and then (ie not giving him the opportunity to rush off and delete stuff)? He will no doubt refuse and probably ask why he should fuel your unreasonable paranoia. But you would then be able to say to him that you know he is still in contact with the ow because he refused to/couldn't prove that he wasn't. Does that make sense?!

Fwiw, my husband has made his blackberry accessible any time I want (not that I have any desire to look) since his affair came to light. It is not an unreasonable thing to do when you have hurt someone you are meant to cherish and are trying to rebuild your relationship with them.

[loves2walk]

But it doesn't quite work that way. They work together and see each other every day. They exchange 10 or so emails each day. While I have been snooping I can see that they are almost entirely work related, just with a friendly slightly intimate edge.

But in the last couple of months, since what I think was an affair, ended, after a period of high stress/shouty behaviour at home, since then, they have little or no personal email/text contact. But enough to make me think nothing is being deleted. So some weekends there is nothing between them at all and he leaves his phone behind him when he goes out and leaves in kitchen. So it is as though they've agreed to have no contact so he feels safe.

So if I asked him to show me I think I'd know exactly what I'd see - which is what I see most evenings when he's reading the bedtime story. If he had any inkling that I could access his emails, he would not have told a blatant lie this morning about OW. So I don't want to risk him getting suspicious of me and changing password. Without this little shred of evidence of ongoing intimacy I would have nothing and really would feel like a mad woman.

[loves2walk]

I have just found a receipt for a white wine and pint of beer for a time which was 5 mins after H phoned me on way home from work to say he was meeting 2 male work colleagues, then he suddenley had to dash off the phone as he said guy he was meeting was approaching him....the time also corresponds to a message on his blackberry from OW saying 'white wine please!'

So I have evidence that it is not just flirty texts but meeting with OW after directly lying to me.

I can't stay in this marriage and be treated like this. But I don't know what to do now. He's away with a friend (this time a real friend of marriage, my best friend's H)till sunday 4pm. I am cooking tea and have 2 boisterous boys to get to bed before I can collapse in a heap. Just don't know what to do about leaving. We don't live near anyone I know well. I can't make him leave as it would be too disruptive to kids. I just have to get through teatime and get kids in bed then have a think.

Any advice from anyone who's been through this?

[IsGraceAvailable]

Am going to leave it to others. Just wanted to tell you how sorry I am for the way you must be feeling, after your discovery. It's so difficult to carry on, hoping for the best but fearing the worst. And, now you have enough proof of the 'worst', there's a responsibility in your court that you didn't ask for and shouldn't have been handed to you.

I hope you receive wise advice here, and can find people to talk to in RL. I also dare to hope ... that, sometime soon, you find a nice, bookish man who understands the art of discussion.

[loves2walk]

Thanks Grace. I wish I felt some relief after all this time suspecting but I don't. I just feel this is so awful.

Don't think I'll ever let anyone in again, ever

[WhenwillIfeelnormal]

Loves, I'm so sorry at this latest discovery. Presumably this receipt was from a recent time?

I sense you need some practical advice now from people who have left and started afresh, but just wanted to send you a womanly squeeze and to let you know that I am here for you in what ever capacity I can help. You are a very special woman.

[loves2walk]

Thanks WWIFN, yes was from last thursday. Just can't believe the denials and complete making out that I'm imagining stuff, even as recently as yesterday. How can someone decent do that to someone they say is the person they love most in the world? I just don't get it.

Thanks for the squeeze. It is helpful being able to communicate about this and have the reality testing as well as the huge support.

[MABS]

so sorry for you having to deal with all this,why doesn't he delete stuff on his blackberry? its simple to do isnt it? or do you have a 'spy'thing on it iyswim?

[loves2walk]

he doesn't because he has no idea I know his password and he is very careless about things like this.

I'm just wondering if I should keep it all quiet and start off the couple counselling to see if he'll admit an ongoing relationship when pushed. Maybe then it will be easier to deal with the aftermath.

I can't imagine his reaction if he comes home tomorrow and I confront him with it. Having that third party questionning us both might help - be a support for me.