Banoffi you can't do anything about other people. I know it feels bad to use the vouchers on necessities, but won't they benefit child more and wasn't that the giver's aim? I have a similar issue with a very generous grandma (and dd does only have one grandparent, so I thikn she feels obliged to work doubletime) plus dh's family tend to got nuts at Xmas especially and pretty lavish on birthdays too. I don't always tell them to hold back, as I know they do this for her cousins too and it feels like I'm disadvantaging her against them. However, I am trying to encourage money now: SIL did that with hers and I just thought her dds were really mercenary from a young age - now I know better! At least then you can buy one thing with it and stick the rest away for later, when they really know what they want. So far, DD has only known once and she bought herself a DSLite - she's a bit young at 7 imo but other family are all a long way off so lots of long car journeys, so I thought it was a good idea.

Tell me how you get on: I reckon she'll have another s**tload of stuff this Xmas and no space for thes tuff she's got now

Message withdrawn

Great thread! This inspired me to have a good clear out with the dcs today and freecycle a load of old tat stuff. It feels very liberating! Also changed the furniture round for easier access to all things Playmobil, and had to laugh at the thread about the dinosaurs antics as we had a king and queen on their way to a wedding in a carriage being abducted by pirates and taken hostage on a pirate ship, made to walk the plank then eaten by a pterodactyl in the palace lake :D So agree about Playmobil being the thing to keep if you're keeping anything

Fascinating reading esp Banoffi's very intellectual post a page ago.
Can you believe I ended up missing all this debate because yesterday my DD fell off the slide at nursery and broke her arm. Spent all day in casualty with her- she was totally amazing and I was so proud of her.
The temptation is to now spoil her rotten while she recovers. I nearly gave her the £1 change out of the parking machine when we came home but resisted and gave her lots of cuddles and love instead.

Playmobil kicks arse

In moderation of course
<remembers point of thread>

Actually, I'm a big fan of children not getting too many toys but Playmobil is totally brilliant because it doesn't actually DO anything. You have to do it all yourself. DD is 2.9 and has adored Playmobil since last summer. Some of the bits are too fiddly for her to work but it doesn't stop her Playmobil mummy and baby flying to the shops on a see-saw and buying magic beer for daddy and the squirrels. Plus, I really laugh when she's got all her Playmobil people in the house and the mummy says to the baby 'It is time to go to sleep. Don't cry. No, I said don't cry. Mummies and babies all have to go to sleep and you will be very miserable in the morning if you haven't had enough sleep' etc etc.

You do

Oh dear...am now convinced I need to buy DS some Playmobil.

<<Skimty decides to re read threasd>>

Most of the toys in our house are second hand or from charity shops. Ditto clothes. My DS1 isn't very materialistic and isn't into things as such. My parents took him to Toysrus with a blank cheque so to speak for his birthday and he came back with a hula hoop.

Do you know, I think fewer toys encourages that glorious play that is generated when one world (dinosaur playmobil, say) meets another (eg, the dolls house). Enter dinosaur ramaging through the city (or a nice cosy cave for them to live in). I think that the big sets of stuff that you are 'meant' to play with together (huge trainsets, for example) have much less exploration potential...

I suspect with fewer toys there is less pressure to tidy up one 'set' before you get out the next.

<desparately trying to justify lack of tidying up as valuable play experiences)

Exactly

Message withdrawn

I totally agree Banoffi my 3(5,5 and 4) have the best most amazing games when they improvise(they spent hours packing an old battered suitcase to go on holiday with round the garden) I spent my whole 70s childhood doing it. I suspect they get the Playmobil more for me than them .

However my lot have various bits from various themes eg a castle,the beach,dinosaurs,fire engine,train etc. They mix and match with other wooden toys and I've been amazed at their level of play. The teeny bits extend it.

Ds spent ages playing with the tiny Playmobil lizard in it's microscopic collecting box looking for new creatures to add to it,he being an explorer in dinosaur times. Ds also had a lovely Brio windwill he used to produce barrels of flour to deliver,having collected grain from his farm. Yes he'd have done some delivering himself but quality toys can spark imagination further in ways they might not have thought of. I am a firm believer in improvised play but I also believe play with quality toys has a big place to play. If it didn't pre-schools would save a fortune.

I can remember desperately wanting a dolls house yes I improvised with shoe boxes but I would have enjoyed improvisation in a different way,made Xmas decorations for it out of junk etc. My dd does both she sets her dollshouse on fire for the Playmobil fire engine to put out but she's forever making buildings with boxes too. One doesn't totally exclude the other if handled right.

Sorry I just find the whole play thing fascinating

indeed!

Have we briefly crossed-posts before?

I won't tell anyone about your posts if you don't tell about mine!

Message withdrawn

Message withdrawn

It was very interesting.

I 'go off one' alot when chatting in RL and most of the time it's not even worth it!

I'm also an anthropologist - but from the dark side - biological anthopology!

Message withdrawn

WreckoftheHesperus as you are mindful of this issue as your child grows I am sure you will just know when things are superfluous novelty.

And if in doubt you can refer to Banoffi's very detailed post

I would be wary of going too far though.

If a DC wants a bit of horrible plastic for their birthday or to spend their pocket money on it(and you have discussed other options) then they should still get to choose. It's a good learning experience for them about how much pleasure they get from different items and how solidly they are made.

Agree about imaginary play. Dd doesn't really play with toys that much any more and for her 4th birthday we are getting some stuff for dressing up which is something of an obsession these days.

We used to have an annual pass for a farm as pp described and we used to go with a friend about twice a month. I don't see those kinds of days out as rare treats tbh as that is how we prefer to live as adults so why not dd - as long as we can afford it? There are some places which are a bit expensive and we might go once in the summer. TBH I hate going to the park. To some extent the dc's lifestyle will be a natural extension of their parents.

yes i do.ds2 rules the house and stupidly i let him half the time for a easy life.it has to stop.i will read thread proberly later!

Message withdrawn

I think that's part of the issue, Juule; at what age does the providing of new things that you've always done to broaden your DC's experience turn the corner and become spoiling? Is there a cut-off point, and how will I recognise it when we get there?

I rarely buy toys these days, but then nobody else spoils our children so I kinda went over the top for the first few years and now my kids favorite form of entertainment is a note book and pencil.
Just goes to show they don't really want all the tat either.
As for the vouchers, why not put £50 in his bank account and you spend the vouchers on something for the house or yourself I've done that many times.
I also spend their birthday money on panto tickets or trips out.

I don't think that giving a baby or young child new/different things to explore is making a rod etc. Babies and young children are discovering and learning all the time. Presenting them with a variety of things just gives them more experiences. Obviously too much all at once would just be confusing but I don't think that there's a problem with introducing different things here and there.

I was thinking about this thread again last night, and think that one of the initial difficulties is when the "spoiling" officially kicks in.

In the early baby phase, I only had a few toys to wave at DD. However, when she wanted stuff to do as a 6 month old, and later when started getting very feisty and wriggly on the changing mat as a toddler, I started producing more and more new items to keep her happy / in place. Often these were not bought toys, but just old tubs and toothbrushes etc, but I accepted that novelty was a way of distracting her attention enough for me to get her to do what I wanted her to do.

I need to find new ways of distracting her and persuading her that don't involve constant novelty, methinks, or I'm probably going to make a bit of a rod for my back...

Choc bars in bed fircone! I would turn into a crazed fishwife if dh did that!

I've been reading this thread with interest and trying to work out if my kids are spoilt or not. The thing is we live in an expat commmunity abroad, so their lives are not "normal". We have no tv channels so the only time they watch is when we're visiting uk. We can't buy toys or do days out where we live, but they get a "fix" of this too when we're home. So I'm not sure. Day to day they never really ask for anything, probably because they know it's not available, but it certainly doesn't take long when we're home for them to start begging for things in shops.

Having said that they live in a great big house with a swimming pool which is obviously a priveleged existence. There are always loads of kids in the house (or we're at someone else's house) and they spend 90% of the time swimming or running around outside, so I don't see that they need many toys really.

It's a difficult one as living abroad means you have more disposable income (house provided etc) so you COULD buy them more stuff, but there is not much to buy really! I always get reverse culture shock when I go home - all the toys and treats aimed at kids, it's quite scary when you're not used to it. Definitely easier to stop the indulgence process when all the material things are not in your face.

For most of the year my dcs don't go in shops, only food markets occasionally, where they are delighted if the man gives them a free banana! Sounds a bit pathetic, I know, but they are so happy and definitely don't miss all the toys. Right now ds is busy taking a huge grasshopper off a sunflower and the 2 dds are making a house for it out of a box!

I try to recreate my 1970s childhood to some extent with the dcs - not too much stuff/wholesome activities etc etc.

However - dh is not on the team! He would buy the dcs presents every day left to his own devices. I've had endless rows with him about dishing out chocolate bars when they're in bed. He had a very spartan childhood and his parents were (are) the King and Queen of Mean. Yesterday I went to the library and got some books for the dcs. Dh asked idly, "Why didn't you just buy them from Amazon?"

The trouble is that dh looks like the hero and me the killjoy.

oh, food treats - waste of time with ds1 who is a human dustbin and eats anything - doesn't have a sweet tooth.
ds2 only has sweet teeth and would probably kill for chocolate, so sweets are given (e.g 2-3 chocolate buttons) after bath at a set time and never in between.

DH and I were thinking about this recently. For ds2's birthday we went to a local farm which is absolutely amazing - playgrounds, sandpits, toys, animals, indoor soft play. It was a brilliant treat.
When we were there we noticed you could get annual membership. It wasn't "out-of-reach" unaffordable. Then some very good friends mentioned that they had membership and went quite a lot, and were obviously keen that we joined for company there...
It made us think a lot. We COULD afford it - although would impact on "spare" money for charity donations. But it really made us think about what we wanted to be a weekly trip and what was a special treat. Both ds have plenty of toys at home which they love playing with and we have a fantastic park - free - 2 mins walk away.
We decided it should stay a special treat.

With regard to toys our ds (4+2)play with:
Brio - free from friend, lego (used to be DH's), water/pots/ladles, garage and little cars. Ds2 loves puzzles and teddy bears and both do parties with a platic tea set.
what they do have a lot of is books...the result of an extended period of rewards during ds1's potty training....

Hello me again.
Firstly can i reassure that I am definitely NOT a journo or anything like that. If an journalist is reading this and is going to nick it then I want a large cut as it took me ages to write the various threads, my eyes nearly dried out last night being glued to the laptop, I am hoarse from reading out all the threads to my DP and I have spent nearly all day thinking about this and also have spent more time talking to my friend about this today! Quite frankly, I am exhausted.
But..exhilarated. I feel like I have turned a corner. I set out on this parenting lark with all the principles that many of you have reminded me of on these posts. However, gradually they have been eroded- by peer pressure (friends who indulge their children), advertising and my DC's themselves who (like any other child of course) have worked out how to get the most out of me. The presents/treats/days out issue and the 'who's the boss' issue are linked because they strike at what one poster has described as *material and emotional overindulgence*

There are so many individual points that I would love to address one by one but really do have to go to bed soon! I now feel like I have made a great new emotional and intellectual connection with a new bunch of people. I was missing this in my life. Thank you!

I think I spoil my kids on some issues and not so much on others.
I spend a lot of time with them and we do holidays, days out etc but I don't think that is spoiling them , maybe indulging them, I don't know. They have never been "passed from pilar to post" as my mum would say and I have generally put their needs first and planned virtually everything around them.
They do have too many clothes, so do I.
Probably too many toys.
Get things not just for birthdays/Christmas (dh just bought dd a very expensive phone) not her birthday.
They do get ice creams several times a week,plus lots of treats but they are expected to eat their meals otherwise no treats
One of my fave sayings is that "There are children starving in Africa, finish your dinner!"
A close friend allows her dd to leave her meals then buys her treats/ice cream to eat, she is paying the price now as her dd is a nightmare where food is concerned.
My children are disiplined if rude or step over the boundary line.
They are quite aware that I am not running a democracy. Both myself and dh are in charge with one of us the clear leader dependant upon the situation.
Mintyy was right when she said that times change. I only got things for birthday/Christmas. I only had small birthday parties but there were no ball pools etc to have parties at when I was a child. Throwing large parties is fine by me as soon my kids will grow up and I will miss not having them.
I spend a small fortune on hobbies for my children but again, I would rather do this than other things and they don't get pocket money and understand if they have pocket money then no dancing classes etc. they accept this completely.
I try not to beat myself up when I hear my children talk about how x has the latest this and that, there is always a play off to be had and I just bite my tongue. It does wind me up though.

I feel so much better reading this, I am not alone. I am concerned that I will be fighting this excess myself.
My 2 month old has more clothes than he could ever wear, mostly gifts, & mostly from MIL. He has already grown out of loads that he has never worn. I find this really sad.
He has loads of toys as well even though he can't play with them yet.
This thread gives me strength to know I'm need to make a stand from the start!

What interesting reading, my DD is only 7 months and as a Nov baby would be getting presents in one hit at the end of the year. It was really bothering me as I grew up only having presents for xmas/birthdays and wondered how to get round it. For her 1st xmas, everyone said she was too young for xmas and gave her money but she still received an obsene about of toys.

I bought things for a 6 month old, waiting for her to grow into the toys which worked brilliantly, by the time the original gifts/ teddies/rattles/teethers were outgrown I had toys to fall back on. Recently I could see she was bored and so bought her a push along train, a shape sorter and a ball.

I felt guilty for buying her toys for what seemed like "nothing" as it goes against the grain for me and have to remind myself that its developmental. But i still struggle with it, she has far more than I did at her age (my mum used to take photos of our pile of presents on occasions) but compared to my friends babies, she has very little.

Already with a 7 month old, my peers are buying clothes perhaps twice a week, a toy every shopping trip etc. DD has perhaps 10 outfits, 6 sleepsuits and 5 romper suits but her wardrobe is full to me and it feels excessive, but my friends children have far far more and I am left feeling guilty already.

Great thread, its left me lots of ideas to draw upon as DD gets older.

I don't spoil my children (thats what granny is for).

They do get lots of days out etc if I can afford it, no fancy holidays as I def can't afford that.

I am most definatly the boss, not debate on that one.

They do get to negotiate on some matters but not all and I do't always give them options, or many options if I do.

Sometime I wish I could do more for them, not because I feel pressured or harrased into it but because I love to see them enjoy new things and have a open outlook on life where anything is possible.

The trick I found though is limited negotiations, mums is boss, and limited or no options especiall y with under 5s or you will be there all day .

Thanks for this thread, it's making fascinating reading! And very inspiring too, so much so that I have just gone through DS's toy boxes and collected one bag for the bin and one for the charity shop I would probably throw out more but DS2 is due in a month so he will be getting all the baby toys.

My DDs Birthdays are Nov, so they only get presents in the winter months... to get round the lack of presents all year round, I try to think ahead on their lists and buy stuff that they will need in the summer or when they're a bit older. These toys then go into a big box and wait until the time is appropriate, then when they have been good and they've not had a toy for a while, they are allowed to dip into the box and get a 'new' toy out. It works a treat, because they get so much at Christmas / birthdays that they don't notice that some of their toys have been put away, and then its always really exciting for them when they are allowed to get a new toy out. It also acts as a reward for them, and satisfies my parents' need to overindulge the children at Christmas. Everyone is a winner!

I do buy bikes etc for Christmas too - there's no reason why they can't cycle round the local park at Christmas - we're often seen out and about the local lake on Boxing day.

Other than that, if they want something else they have to save / sell something for it.

We have both children's birthdays and Christmas in the 3 winter months.

But we have never bought things like bikes for those occasions. We get them when the children need them which is usually in Spring or Summer when you realise they have outgrown the old one.

It just sort of happened because eldest child was ready to graduate from trike to bike in May. It's a better time of year to pick up second hand items because other people are realising how much their DCs have grown over the winter and spring cleaning their garages.

Waiting for Christmas or birthdays all very well when the child is doing the asking (often for a variation on a toy they already have), but when the child genuinely needs something, it's not really spoiling them to get it at another time in the year.

I agree with your OP, could have written it myself : ( I have a house full of toys and tat that is rarely played with, preferring to take the kids out to the playground than stay at home.

Same with food "treats".. DD doesn´t even LIKE the usual chocolate, sweets etc. her friends invariably get on each outing, but takes them unenthusiastically and they end up on the ground. Sociual pressure to be the same..

There is no relationship between having lots of toys and degree of happiness, perhaps even an INVERSE relationship.

Thanks for this thread, I´m off to put some toys int he cupboard!

It reminds me that when mine were young that we used to browse around toy shops if we were at a loose end sometimes, in the same way that we used to browse around pet shops, we had no intention of buying anything and the DCs had no expectation that we would and so it never caused a problem.
I would never ever hold out buying something for achieving something, although we might celebrate afterwards with a special meal. It is very sad if they are promised it and then they fail to achieve.

That's true Anna, it's ok for dd but ds' birthday is in December so it's an awfully long time for him to wait (he's still too young to know or care now but I can see it being an issue as he gets older).

We got DD a bed for Christmas when she was 18 months old-DS was going to need the cot at some point after that so wanted her to get used to the idea of the bed in good time.

I think this thread title sounds like a newspaper article!

Have I been on MN too long? I must have.

I'm Swedish so I get to do namedays too

great for spreading the present buying out a bit

though you only get something small for your nameday

The really fab thing about furniture for birthdays is that there is less mess in their bedrooms afterwards than before .

I find that 'rewards' for acheiving are useful. All my 3 have been promised something that they have been longing for if they have good end of year reports. And I will admit that that is largely because I want an excuse to give them these things, rather than them needing a reward as such for good work.

I actually only bought DD cookie cutters (which she had begged me to buy on a previous occasion) some sweets and some £1 bath toys for her 4th birthday come to think of it. I felt a bit worried at the time but the "present" was throwing a big party at home and making a big fuss of her, baking and decorating cakes etc.

It might seem a bit stingy but, in fact I was glad I did this as she got totally spoiled by everyone else. She never noticed what we hadn't given her she had a fantastic birthday (one small family party with cake, then one big kid's party) - oh yes and she loves the cookie cutters !!

Like others, I dread the thought of her accumulating yet more stuff unless I know it will be used.

And she's having the matching wardrobe for this year's birthday and Christmas! So I shall just carry on with my system

I can see that logic.

I justify buying big things at other times on the basis that I need to get things for DD when it is developmentally appropriate for her to have them.

Having said that, she got a desk for her bedroom for her 4th birthday and Christmas - a combined present from her parents and four grandparents. Since she hardly got any toys then, she can have them during the year.

Well DD is in March so she has quite a big gap too butpersonally I would never ever be able to birng myself to buy anything "big" without it being Xmas or birthday - its my mum coming out in me.

the eating out thing is funny, isn't it.

I was 10 years old the first time I went to a restaurant (had been very occasionally to McDonalds or highly unfashionable NZ tea shops prior only), I was so excited I was practically hyper ventilating.

I find the waiting until Christmas or birthday complicated, though. DD was born in November. If she only gets big presents in November and December, the rest of the year is awfully long. Right now she needs a new scooter, for example.

Whenever DD asks for a toy I tell her to wait for Xmas or birthday or say "write it on your santa list". She gets upset but then forgets about it.

I never buy toys she asks for randomly. Random treats are always my idea not hers and she knows that i control it.

I take some approach I was bought up with ie, spoilt at Xmas and birthdays, but not the rest of the year round.

It is harder with DD because she is currently my only (whereas I was one of many so my mother had to be fairly brutal).

I know she has too many clothes for example - not all bought by me but its like I am treating myself buying her nice clothes (not pricey, just nice) which is a danger to watch for.

I am absolutely not bothered about saying No when she asks for stuff and she knows I won't bend but i am possibly inconsistent eg, I will sometimes buy her things on the spur of the moment (i bought her a great toy horse & doll set at a 2nd hand shop recently for example for 2.99 which she loves - it was a case of just seeing a great bargain plus we were on holiday and she entertained herself with it for the rest of the weekend). I do limit it but its probably not a great idea to do it ever really.

if she is particularly naughty & spoilt I will sometimes take her favourite dress-ups off her (terrible punishment for a 4 year old!)and put them away for a few days until she has "earned" them again.

DH is definitely worse than me when it comes to giving in and buying treats which i find annoying - although his older kids don't seem at all spoilt or materialistic.

Message withdrawn

Wreck there is nothing wrong with going out every weekend and enjoying the fresh air, I definately don't tihnk that would count as spoiling children. Howver, if every excursion involved going somewhere that involved an entrance fee, a gift shop and numerous other oportunities to rob you of your money then I would say that was excessive and unnecesary.

If getting out of the house means a trip to the park, countryside, or other places that don't cost money there is nothing wrong with that. Fresh air and space to run around in the open are good for children, especially if it doesn't involve them being 'entertained', but rather finding their own entertainment.

We have no garden. As a result I spend as much time as possible outside with DS, especially on the weekends. We pack a picnic, get on our bikes and visit a new park/common/wood each week. It is great fun and cheap too.

Gosh some of you are a harsh lot!

When you get a well argued thread like this - don't you just know what's going to happen. What's the betting that a very similar argument appears in the Sunday papers? <waves to journalists>.

Oh re being the boss, there is only one boss in the house and that's me

I've no idea if that's right though probably not, I'm sure there will be a book somewhere saying it's not.

Interesting thread.

I know what you mean. I am v fussy about toys too but definitely not anti plastic. I love tasteful wooden toys but I've managed to steer the dc also towards Playmobil and Sylvanian Families so hideously expensive you get bugger all which suits me .

I don't buy Bratz,Polly Pocket, etc etc because they are so badly made for the price and I hate the shopping mall,celebrity message thing they convey but I would never confiscate- ok maybe I would if a Bratz came on the scene. To be honest I think it's about valuing things.

The kids have collected a lot of Playmobil now but it's all stored in Trofast boxes away and they play with it respectfully. I would confiscate toys if they weren't played with properly ie broken but thankfully this hasn't been a problem. They play beautifully with everything.

I do worry that they have too much but there are just too many gorgeous toys around. I do think I should just bank money given to them for Xmas presents as they have enough toys between all 3 to keep them amused for hours but then I see things like the Playmobil camper van complete with mini picnic set .......

I buy masses of books and art stuff ,just bought them a lovely Djeco paint palette each for the hols which is probably not right but I buy zero toys, all year round they only have what they have at Xmas and bdays.

Re snacks they have occasional treats as I don't want teeth rotting, obese kids and they know they can have treats but not daily.

Re trips out I'm happy to do educational things but hate soft play and Crealy type places. My kids are probably spoilt in that they hang out on the beach most weeks and we take them to the woods,moor every weekend. My mother thinks they're spoilt in that respect but it's all free so who knows.

Re the McDonalds toys my lot had a lovely gorilla in a book which explained about extinction, they learnt loads and loved them. They really cherished them as we never go to McDonalds-my mother was trying to corrupt them

It's funny I had a very strict 70s childhood and my mother is the worst person on the planet for spoiling-sprinkle doughnuts,sweets,TV etc. She and mil are good with toys though, never buy mid year just the occasional T-shirt or book.

It is a very interesting line of thought has got me thinking.

It's hard though wrt material things isn't it? I was living abroad when I got pregnant with dd and my friends there gave me a baby shower before I left. Seriously, my entire baggage allowance coming back was baby clothes. Then two of my friends AND two of my cousins gave me hand me downs-sack fulls of stuff. I have only ever had to buy dd pyjamas and shoes (although I have bought her a few things just because I wanted to).

DS didn't get quite as many hand me downs but still has more than enough clothes-both my dc have clothes stuffed into their drawers and that is with me regularly clearing out and passing bag fulls of stuff on to charity/other friends.

We hardly buy the dc toys but still have an entire room stuffed full of them-they just get so much at christmas and birthdays even though we ask people not to buy. They don't get them inbetween-if they do get a treat it will be a book or stickers (oh and once we bought a ball).

My friend's 6 year old has an ipod ffs and is getting a computer for her birthday. She already has a tv/dvd in her room and shelves full of dvds. I don't want my kids to be like that.

Erm - how would your best friend feel hearing you think her kids are horrible?

And to deny a child birthday presents is unkind in my opinion.

You don't have to buy toys all year round - just say 'well if you are lucky maybe you will get it for birthday/christmas' but don't deny a kid a birthday present.

Also if you have too many toys say you are having a clear up and taking baby toys to the charity shop so that other babies, less fortunate that your children, can get to play with them.

When they are old enough make them do chores for pocket money and then get a paper round and tell them they have to put 50% away into their trust funds for when they go to university - they will learn the value of money and saving.

DD and I have a lot of outings - I hate staying in all day even more than she does! That isn't going to change.

Agree with a lot of the points on the availability of material possessions here, and how, as parents, we need to lead by example and reject rampant and tacky consumerism, as well as being sensible with regards to the amount of stuff accumulated in various ways by our children.

I find the outings / trips point more difficult, however. DD is 17 months old, and I find it a lot better to go out with her (only at weekends, as I work FT) than to stay in with her at the moment; she adores playparks, zoos etc, and likes running around in the fresh air above all else; is this spoiling her? Should I keep her at home more? We also take her out to lunch in cafes a lot; she's probably already eaten out more often than I did in my whole childhood

Is this bad, or is this a good opporuntity for the family all to enjoy a meal together?

Banoffi - very similar situation here with one dd (nearly 4). I think I am the worst offender because I just love to get her stuff!! But I am trying to reign it in and we have done some calling to 'go to the babies' (friends or charity shops).

The plastic tat goes into boxes in the cupboards and occaisionally it's nice to get a box of miscellaneous tat out and rummage through it. Now and again I cull the tat but it is an endless process. I don't veto tat (unless it was a gun or something) - I don't want to censor dd's environment in order for her to develop values and tastes - there are other ways to do that. Sometimes she is given things I would never have chosen but personally, I think it's importnat to allow other influences (within reason) into her life.

As an adult, I tend to aquire stuff too easily. We are on the cluttered side and although we regularly cull stuff there is still a lot of 'stuff' left.

I am definitely working on being less of a servant, espeically now she really is big enough to do more things herself. We have no tidying up though and I don't even really notice!

I love this thread!! Myhands and banoffi this is exactly what I have been thinking. I actually find the amount of stuff given to dd (2.4), especially by pils, quite sickening. I also find the constant 'need' for activities and treats (ice cream, chocolate etc) that her friends do ridiculous! I have always suspected that my tight Spartan attitide comes from my own very frugal childhood but you have given me the confidence to take action!!!!! She's my child and I need to take more control so to speak! I'm going to ask pils to cut down on presents (its currently EVERY time they see her, which is VERY often) and I'm going to sort out what she has and give some away.
We have had some rules such as telly only after tea, ice cream on Saturdays only and tea away from the table on Sunday nights only and she loves the novelty it....

x post

Humm, interesting Orm.

Like OMDB, I think we all have a duty (think this is the right word) to learn to distinguish between what we want and what we need. Absolutely agree that the materialism problem is a societal one - but as such it is my responsibility as a parent to help the dcs, as well as us, to avoid its excesses as much as we can (without becoming too hair-shirty)

I absolutely agree that "the children are owed the very best the parents can achieve" BUT I think that learning self control, the real value of possessions and other sappy stuff is more of the best than simply giving them stuff. Am sure you wouldn't disagree with that though...

Aha! x-posted omdb!

Whims are one thing, wants are another IMO. If there is something that my children really want and have wanted for a long time I might well let them have it. A 'whim' is seeing something for the first time and wanting it at that precise moment. I don't usually give in to those.

I think that maybe we are using the word 'boss' in different ways then. For me it means that my life is devoted to them to an overwhelming extent and I am much more interested in supplying their wants/needs than my own.

I don't buy any toys at all, because of the 30 they get annually at their birthday party. Most of them aren't that great though, anyway. You can't beat a pack of cards and some things like othello and connect 4 for entertaining 7 year olds.

I live in Italy, and here there are loads of little "collectible" sets - bags with a surprise figure from a series in them - for sale at newsagents for about 2 quid. I seriously hate these and only buy them after injections! But many of the dss' friends have 200 of the characters or more. Is this totally mad of their parents, or am I missing the point?

I think a better way of explaining it would be that children's needs should be "the boss", rather than children themselves being "boss". Their needs should always come first.

Also, children can come first without being "theBoss". Their needs can be met without their every whim pampered to.

Banoffi I regularly let DS browse the toy department or toy shops having told him beforehand that we won't be buying anything.

Orn I disagree with you to some extent, not really about what you said, I agree as parents we have a responsibility to look after our children but I really don't think there is anything wrong with saying "no" to some requests even if we could say yes. I don't think it does children any harm to sometimes go without something they want. At DS's school the PTA sell ice-lollies every friday after school, for 50p. I can afford that once a week but sometimes I say "no", because I want him to get used to not always getting what he wants, or sometimes resisting the urge to buy something just for the sake of buying it.

Before I sound completely mean and heartless, I apply this "no" to myself far more often than to DS, when I see something I could afford and would like but don't need, I control the urge to buy it and go without instead.

Myhands What would have been the problem with your ds wearing his old pants?
Wouldn't he soon have realised they were uncomfortable and put some others on? Or if they weren't that uncomfortable - what was the problem?

Spoilt children are created by poor parenting. Poor parenting does not consist per se of giving things to children, or putting them first.

To a certain extent children have to be 'the boss'. They have to come first. Their parents brought them into the world for their own purposes, the children are owed the very best the parents can acheive. Once you conceive a child your own choices, to a great extent, are limited and you come second. If my son wants a 'whole class party' and I can afford it I will try to do my best. I won't say no on principle. If I say no it's because I can't afford, it will be bad for them, inconvenient to other members of the family etc, not because I beleive there is some magic virtue in the word 'No' itself. Too many parents beleive that being a good (ie strict) parent means saying no all the time.

When it comes to the generational difference, I has a lot less in terms of possessions and opportunities. But that was almost entirely because there wasn't the money and there simply weren't the 'things' available in the shops. We are all more materialistic. Why should children be singled out. If children are given too much, that is only because we all have too much. Our lives are dominated by ephemeral crap.

ahem... need to stop overusing the exclamation mark I think...sorry

Wow banoffi - very inspiring - and sounds like your ds is having a lovely time

myhands - that 'pick your battles' thing is my mantra too. But I do sometimes wonder if it's a bit of an excuse for 'don't bother fighting it'. It is so much my default setting, I think I sometimes need to push myself out of it.

Re plastic tat - actually, we LOVE party bag stuff in our house - they get played with until they fall apart (ok, sometimes 2 hours, but sometimes 2 years) We keep it all in a box, so it only comes out occasionally - random assortment of animals/hoppy things etc gives much joy.

What I do do at birthdays (we don't do the one in one out thing - might start that) is very quickly remove anything that I know won't get played with (eg this year, ds got 101 bits of power ranger rubbish - he;s never seen power rangers and has only a passing interest) I put these things in a regifting box, and pass them onto more interested children. DS has only realised and claimed something back once so far...

Banoffi your post about the emotional and material over-indulgence has hit the nail on the head. This is exactly what I was inarticulately thinking- you are a genius!

I got very excited (how sad is that) reading about your victory over the boiled egg. It could be me having that same battle!

Let's venture forward together!!

Wow thanks everyone this is really helping me to process my thoughts. Jeffily I think you have summarised it quite nicely. I'm sure I thought the same when my daughter was tiny but I think I was starting to lose my way in face of the relentless pressure and tide of "stuff" that is heaped upon us from all directions.

I had a very brief chat with DD this morning about her toys and explained that there are some children with no toys at all. My DS then joined in and said "imagine if we had no toys in our bedrooms mummy" and I said "Do you know what, you'd still be incredibly lucky and privileged children" and gosh do you know, they would be!! So I will keep this in mind when I face requests for the latest toy, requests for the big birthday party or whatever.

Also I did have a slight battle with DS this morning (he wanted to put some old pants on which were too tight- I'd forgotten to take them out of the undie drawer). I think old me would have given up and let him wear them but new me said "no, you can't wear them and when you've finished having your tantrum I'll come back and help you get dressed". And I stuck to it. *Myhands" is now in control and it feels good.

Right, I'm off for a treck around the house with a bin bag in one hand and a charity sack in the other while the kids are at preschool

Message withdrawn

Message withdrawn

I just read through the whole thread, while holding my 12 week old in a sling as she currently refuses to sleep anywhere else! Very interesting and it helped me make some decisions. I have been having this conflict over the last couple of weeks, even though she is still so tiny. I think I tend to over-think my parenting, maybe because I have a decent amount of maternity leave so have time to, whereas my mothers generation were back at work by now! I don't want to leave her to cry for any time at all as I worry that she will learn she is unloved, so if she want to be held, I hold her. If she wants to be rocked off to sleep, I rock her. Last night I decided it was time to decide what things I am going to make a stand on to help her start to learn that she can't always have what she wants, as soon as she wants it. At bedtime I put her down and let her complain for a few minutes, going back and stroking her face every 3 minutes and reassuring her that I loved her. Usually bedtime takes at least 90 mins of singing, rocking, feeding. Last night it was 40 mins of stroking/whinging and she was fast asleep, and stayed asleep for 4 hours! A record for her. I'm not suggesting tiny babies should be left to cry, it just made me think that maybe 3 months is not too early to pick my battles and start as i mean to go on, with clear, loving boundaries.

I am a Reception class teacher in my working life, and pre-baby I would certainly have said that children are too indulged, in general, in our society. I used to be shocked that 4 yr olds were getting expensive computer games for their birthdays! But now DD is here, it's easy to see how it can happen, I just want to make her happy. I am certain, however, that what makes kids happy is love, time, and knowing that someone is in charge and the rules don't change. Thanks. This thread has reminded me of that.

juule - my DSSs certainly didn't help out with anything at DD's age - they have got significantly better, not worse with age!

Mine have enjoyed playing with some of the plastic toys, too. They've spent hours in imaginative play with Polly Pocket and Barbies. They do recognise really cheap plastic toys are not likely to last very long as they've had stuff falling apart quickly and ended up disappointed so are a bit more discerning in what they choose for themselves.

Myhandslooksoold Mine have done that with clothes. Want something different the next day. But then the next day (or the day after that) they might decide that they want to wear the slightly soiled clothes again, just not the day after.

Bonsoiranna All my children have been very helpful at around the age of your dd and younger. Love to help out with anything. It's when they get older and the novelty wears off and they have more interesting stuff to do that it all gets a bit more like you describe your dss attitudes. Or so I've found.

Sorry piscesmoon, didn't mean to suggest that I'd take stuff out of my kids' hands and chuck it... I was trying to find a comparison of cheap, mass-produced plastic toys that I'd happily buy / let them have versus the kind of toy that, as you suggest, lasts for 9 minutes. Mine very rarely visit McDs either, so the toy is treasured - for about 9 minutes. And after then I don't have any guilt-feelings about chucking it.

Mine loved the McDonald meal tat-they hardly ever got it and it would have been horrible to bin it. It was a 9 minute wonder-they had their fun and forgot it.
When my DS was ill in hospital he played with a tiny, plastic bright purple skateboard for hours! They had an orange plastic tea set which had hours and hours of imaginitive play.I could go on.
I would hate to get home from somewhere and some one take my prize or whatever and say -'Ugh-you can't have that!'-so I wouldn't do it to my DCs just because they were little. They grow out of it in their own accord.

Depends just how tat the plastic tat is I suppose! The kind of rubbish that comes free with a MacDonalds meal (shudder) - yes - in the bin where it belongs. But not all plastic is tat. My DD was given a tea set in blue, red and yellow plastic for her 1st birthday. She and her 1-year old brother play with it on a daily basis.
Would I put it out on my antique linen tablecloth for the queen when she comes for high tea? No. Would I let me kids play with it and have imaginary tea parties? You bet

I don't encourage them but I don't ban it either-they work out quality for themselves in the end. Forcing it on them is counter productive IMO.

I don't encourage my DD to play with plastic tat (=junk toys) for exactly the same reason that I don't want her watching indiscriminate TV (=junk media) or eating chips and burgers (=junk food).

The world is absolutely chock-a-block full of rubbish created by humans. My responsibility as a parent is to help my child distinguish quality and those things that will do her good among all the rubbish.

I find they love plastic tat-it seems very unfair to remove it, from an adult point of view, before they have played with it! I would just remove it when it has been forgotten. DCs often don't like the same toys as adults-I found they preferred bright plastic to tasteful, natural wood.

Ineresting thread.
Banoffi - about the vouchers: Why don't you just keep them until he/you sees something that he really needs. That could be clothes, learning materials, books, whatever. If the voucher-giver asks what you bought, you can explain that he has so many toys at the moment that you wanted to save them and get something special that he'll remember and treasure. Perhaps she'll get the message that you don't want any more crap lovely, but uncherished presents.

To other worried posters: YOU are the parent, you get to call the shots on what your dc has / does not have.
If the amount of stuff your dc have is getting you down, do something about it! It IS shocking how much stuff kids accumulate and mine are no exception. However, living as my family (DH, DD,4 and DS,1) do in a tiny apartment in central Tokyo, we I have no option but to limit the amountof stuff that comes in. Recycable/charity shops here are practically non-existent and as I don't own a car, would find it difficult to get across Tokyo with bags of old toys etc to the one church that holds the odd recycling bazaar, so I try and be as strict as I can on what comes in in the first place. When relatives etc ask what they want for xmas/birthdays, I always ask for money to put in their accounts in the UK - thankfully most people are more than happy to do this as it means avoiding having to send presents abroad. The kids don't miss what they don't know (birthday presents aren't a big thing in Japan and xmas isn't really xmas).

We do this as Anna does- and less is definitely more IYSWIM.
I frequently put things straight into the closet so that dd doesn't see them, however unfortunately party bags here are full of vile tat which I cannot remove from dd once she has seen it- usually on the way home from the party tbh.
She is also cursed blessed with an eidetic memory so I cannot just put something away as she asks for it.

We do the one toy in another out policy, if it's a big thing.

Ds loves plastic tat if it does cool stuff, but there's a limit! I have to do sneaky trips to charity shop and just hope he doesn't notice something has gone. He often does!

Some family really really don't like it but we have asked for money into an account for when he's older instead of a gift.

If they want to give a gift they can. Hope to talk about all the money he's saved (plus his pocket money pittance!) to buy a bike or whatever..

"BonsoirAnna- you mentioned that you are fussy about what you allow your DD to have- how do you do this re. gifts and all that party bag/cheap crap etc as I am concerned about offending family and friends."

When DD was very little (1 and 2), if she received really vile plastic presents (Polly Pocket, Pet Shop etc) it went straight to the recycling bin! I was really ruthless. As she has got older and actually plays with the yucky stuff people give her for five minutes, it gradually disappears ie I hide it away and if she doesn't ask for it, I also recycle it.

Bit by bit, family (DP's family, because mine doesn't buy that stuff) have cottoned on to the fact that we don't do trashy plastic and so we get much less of it or I get asked before they buy it.

Party bags aren't a huge deal here in Paris - mostly a few sweets and a balloon.

I agree that in society, children often get away with far too much... I am quite strict with my two children, but I do see this as quite a different issue from material possessions.

I am strict with my children - DD1 is 5 and DD2 is 2, both have to make their own beds in the morning, if they want to have friends to play in their bedroom, they have to tidy it up first (and I will not help - their room, their mess - but if they want friends round, they need to tidy up first). I will not clean DD1s bum, or put her shoes on or anything like that, I'm her mother, not her slave.

That said, my girls do own lots of toys and their playroom is rather full. But, they are also taught to respect their stuff. If they break a toy, it goes into the bin and will not be replaced. I do not buy toys during the year, and neither does family really. In fact, I do not buy lots of toys for birthdays either... but they do have a big party. DD1 wanted a big present for her birthday this year, and I said to her if she had that she wouldn't get her big (whole class type thing) party. She chose the party - her reasoning was 'Birthdays aren't about presents, are they mummy?' (That is an actual quote from my 5 year old). She equates Christmas with presents (then she does get loads!) and birthdays with the celebration (usually a party and weekend break - shared with her sister's birthday). She gets a load of presents at Christmas - but that will pretty much be it for the year.

Earlier this year, she wanted a lap top as the computer in her playroom was a very old hand me down and so very slow - we let her have it, but she had to save the money first by earning it through doing chores and selling off old toys through Ebay etc. She raised the money entirely herself, and got her laptop (netbook).

So I see having lots of possessions as being very different to being spoilt. Come round my house and you will see the playroom stuffed with toys, but you will also see all the games have got their pieces, all the jigsaw pieces intact and all the dressing up clothes hung up and orderly. They have lots, but they know how to respect what they have got as they know if they don't it will go in the bin and it will not be replaced.

Message withdrawn

Funnypeculiar- yes we have a similar problem re. outfits. My DD will wear one outfit for half a day (she wears school uniform to preschool) and then at the end of the day we hang it on a peg in her bedroom (it maybe has one dirty mark- not worth washing). Then the next day she argues with me about putting yesterdays outfit on "I don't fancy those shorts today Mummy" and sometimes I give up and let her choose a clean outfit. Then that evening I have 2 very slightly dirty outfits! So I end up inconveniencing myself with more washing to let her have her own way- yes I am fitting my life around her.

It's all so flipping exhausting isn't it- having those constant battles of power. My mum always says "choose your battles" but with this approach I am developing an 'it's not worth the fight' mentality so end up with more work because it is easier.

"I just don't think it's us as parents spoiling our children, we all do it collectively as a society. we all expect so much, for A Lot to be normal. My granny had two coats, one for winter, a mac for spring. I, I have, a lot of coats, too many. too ashamed to count." Banoffi, yes yes yes I so agree.

I am going to talk to the kids tomorrow about their toys- I have already been talking about how much they have and how the house is starting to get full up. I am going to explain how some kids have no toys at all and suggest a think about what they really need and what they could give to another child. After the sort out, from then on it's going to be one in-one out policy.

As for the 'who's the boss' problem I am going to be ready to be boss. No more Mrs Walkovermummy. Thanks to those who posted reminding me that it doesn't mean that the boss is the dicatator- the children need to have a part and a say in our life as a family.

The other thing I noted was that a treat doesn't have to be a gift or outing. How about a reward being "to bake a cake with mummy" or "water the garden with the hose" instead of "cbeebies magazine" or "sweeties". Treats do not have to involve spending money.

PS Banoffi - real saucepans + box = much better - and much easier to tidy away at the end of the day

I would just go with your instincts.
For example there is no way that I would give a whole class party-whatever the pressure because I hate them. We have had lots of rows about trainers, for example, but in the end they got the message that I had a top price and anything above they had to top up with their own money. I tend to buy books outside birthdays (because I don't think you can have too many books) but not much else. We don't have lots of treats in the house, so that is easily solved. Luckily we don't have family who buy lots of things.
I constantly tell them that they will thank me when they are older-I think they will!
I give them time which is far more important than material possessions.

Have just been thinking about this whilst loading the dishwasher, and realise that whilst I can limit stuff reasonably OK, but I do struggle sometimes with saying no vs (as Anna puts it) the 'decisions about your own life' thing.

By and large, I feel that if the dcs want to do something, and it isn't a pain for me (or rude to someone else/breaks any of my other key parenting rule whatsits) , I go with it. I do sometimes wonder if more structure/benign dictatorship would make everyone's lives easier.
Dd, for example, likes getting changed. I allow this, as long as we're not in a rush. She sometimes wears 3 outfits a day. It's such a minor thing, but I do wonder if we fit round our kids, when they should be fitting (more) around us...

Sometimes I say no to a request by DS, even if I could say yes coz I have the time or money. I just want him to get used to not always getting what he asks for. It is hard sometimes but is good practice.

In answer to OP, IMO, yes!

I have only skimmed the thread as I am soooo tired and on my way to bed, but will read properly tomorrow.
In our house, daddy is the worst offender for giving treats, buying presents, bribing etc etc. I feel a bit alone at times and resentful that I am stuck with the tight, evil, party-pooper mummy role.
Anyway, too tired to make sense. Night-night.

Gosh when I started typing this last thread there were 11 replies....
Will read quickly to catch up.....

Or, for relations who can't control their urges to spend their money on your DS, give them the details of his child trust fund account and ask them to pay whatever money they where going to spend on toys into there instead. That way they are helping him in the future instead, far more loving and caring.

Thanks to all of you that have posted. This is incredibly reassuring.
Banoffi- thank you so much for your honest post. Re. the presents from others- this is exactly the same as what happens to us. I wish it would stop. My DC do generally look after and appreciate their toys and play with them all (bear in mind that they are older than your DS and also I have harped on about how they should appreciate what they have for the last year and made a point of throwing out anything they break or spoil and they are then generally sorry and repentant). Three is the perfect age to start the process of education and you are definitely not running out of time. I have debated taking away toys and have made a few hhalf-hearted efforts to 'rotate' stuff but nothing long term. Any advice/experience of this anyone?

BonsoirAnna- you mentioned that you are fussy about what you allow your DD to have- how do you do this re. gifts and all that party bag/cheap crap etc as I am concerned about offending family and friends.

Hey....Here's a thing that just occured to me- my 'strict' friend just returned from a trip abroad and bought back little presents for my DC's!!! She is incredibly generous- bringing over cakes etc. I want to return her generosity and now she says she doesn't want gifts for her son. It's very difficult! I want to 'repay' her for her kindness and this is why all this gift-buying for children is getting out of hand- I reckon this is happening to loads of us. Our kids get a gift (do you still get birthday gifts for your children from ex-work colleagues and friends you had when your children were tiny? I do!) and then we feel we have to 'repay' the gift and so the buying of crap continues and we all fill each others homes.

P.S. When I said father I didn't actually mean it literally for everyone - I meant it metaphorically - any kind of ruling body/structure/ whatever, whether that be through school, mother, aunt, grandparents - so long as it is consistent!

banoffi good luck and keep us updated on your experiment! It'll be interesting to see what happens....

Message withdrawn

<filches cooking sherry, god I love sherry>

Interesting thread. I beat myself up all the time about my parenting. I have ishoos that stem from my own upbringing and because in many ways I don't want to follow the same path my parents took with me I find myself being unclear in my parental policies.

I agree with Banoffi that children need a strong framework to live within, and learning to accept that they cannot get their own way all the time will actually make them happier in the long run.

I know people who have very difficult relationships with their dps because internally they lack the self-discipline that I think is needed to be learned from an early age. Very often these people have problems because they need to test the boundaries. I know a couple of women, both of whom had a strikingly similar upbringing, (real daddy's girls, spoilt materially from an early age), both went for lovely easy going partners but ended up having affairs with quite strict, older men. I do think some people crave a father figure - not a daddy, but a strong father who can reign them in a bit.

Just a few meandering thoughts... but I do think it's a fundamental basis of human happiness is to live within a framework of rules. (Not an oppression though). Even if those rules from the outset seem unappealing.

Or (for vouchers) explain your plan to god mother (be prepared to be laughed at, just be good humoured) and ask if she'd rather you spend it on clothes, or keep it til ds 'needs' something new (eg bike)

I'd add playdough and duplo/lego to OMDB's list, and possibly some figures (if not included with cars)

Banoffi for the voucher thingy, just operate a one-toy-in-one-toy-out policy. For every new toy your DS gets he has to choose an old toy to donate to charity/give to a friend etc.

Message withdrawn

I recommend you leave him a ball, hi bike, some cars/trucks/diggers (DS wouldn't servive without these) and maybe a train set if he has one. Oh, and maybe some construction toys like duplo or bricks.

That should do.

And books and colouring stuff.

Message withdrawn

myhands I can totally relate to you on this one. My DS is 20 months old and IMO has way too much stuff already. We bought him toys at first as we obviously didn't have any but have only really bought him the usual baby / todler things within reasonable amounts, but it's my inlaws that drive me crazy. They spoil DS so much esp my SIL who at Easter bought him a wooden rocking horse, a toy digger, clothes and an egg- for Easter!!!!!!!! All I got DS was a 99p chocolate egg!

She has a 7 year old DS who IMO is utterly spoiled. He is a lovely wee boy but knows nothing about value of toys and gets a new toy literally every single week. Last week he was on Ebay at his grandads bidding on an antique Action man that was going for £45! (and he already has >30 (yes 30) action men. He didn't blink when he told me the price. He also sleeps in on Xmas Day as it's just not exciting, which is so sad.

So I really don't want DS to go down the same road and I want him to appreciate things. I plan on only buying big gifts at birthdays and Xmas (and very special occasions like when his sibling arrives next month). He will still get little things here and there but within reason. I hope anyway! It's so hard though cos when we said we'd be getting DS a toy train for when DS2 arrives (about £10) his grandad burst out laughing and said 'push the boat out why don't you!' ARGH!

Give it a go, banoffee I am very mean with toys - dcs get very little outside of Christmas/birthdays, and I do notice how 'unmaterial' they are in comparison to some of their more well-toyed up mates. They have always been very good at amusing themselves (this may or may not be related)
Current favourite toy: my granny's button box (they are 5 &3) - they'll play with them for hours...

DOn't think it'll sort out wandering off in meals, or tidying up though (hasn't helped mine )

Message withdrawn

Message withdrawn

That's the spirit banoffi

Banoffi I highly recommend you pack up a whole load of your DS's toys (with him there to help) and let him choose a select few to keep out, and then rotate them once a month or even get rid of some altogwther.

Last year in order to afford a summer holiday abroad DS and I jointly agreed to get a lodger in for 6 weeks, to live in DS's room. We packed up almost all of his toys and put them in the attick, and he shared my room with me for the duration of the six weeks the lodger was there.

TBH he didn't miss his toys much, he just used what he did have far more imaginatively. He also really appreciated his toys once he moved back into his room again after the lodger had left.

Message withdrawn

I suppose i fell into the 'shower children with toys' thing, as my girl's bedroom was packed to the brim with toys, so much so that i realised they were totally overwhelmed and couldnt play with one toy for more than a few minutes.

We had a massive clear out, chucked away 3/4 of their toys (well freecycled/charitied) and the difference is amazing. The girls now adore playing in their room, with their handful of toys.

As for being the boss, i am naturally a bit of a sargent major type mother, quite easily irritated and often berate myself for being too quick to snap. I think a middle ground is needed, where children rightfully get a say in their lives and their home...a bit of compromise where possible, but parents also accept they are parents and sometimes that means being firm.

I definately can understand what you are saying here and I don't think you are on your own by any means. A lot of parents feel the pressure to allow the dcs more of a say/more toys etc. as that is the way society seems to be but a lot do feel uneasy about it at the same time. I agree with baskingseals about going with your gut feeling.

Kids can feel overwhelmed with too many toys and not be able to appreciate the ones they have so I found it easier just to say 'put it on your birthday/Christmas list' if they wanted something. As you say, it is more than that though, it is the feeling that the balance of power is more in their favour than perhaps it should be. I find I always tend to empathise with them too much and need to remind myself to be firmer with them. I think if you are sure in yourself of what you are saying, children are often surprisingly happy with that, even if they aren't getting their own way. I will keep an eye on this thread - I could use some tips too.

Message withdrawn

Banoffi children have to be trained to tidy up, it doesn't come naturally to them, so unless you have invested the time into actually training your DS to help around the house, tisy up, put his bike away etc, you cannot blame him for not doing it.

Start as you mean to go on, and it is never too late to start training them to do more around the house. Your DS is young, you will be able to turn him around and train him to be more helpful

Message withdrawn

myhand i think I am your strict friend lol, except I am not strict at all, i am just not afraid of saying "no" to a request from DS.

I don't tihnk we live in a time of plenty any more, I tihnk this recession will mean a lot of parents cut back on lavishing their children with material goods.

Interesting thread.

I worry sometimes that DS doesn't have as much as his friends, and doesn't go on as many costly excursions, because we simply cannot afford it and I keep to a strict budget, but actually this has helped me feel less guilty.

DS is definately not the boss in this household, but his opinions and feelings are valued and respected just as much as mine. I am not hus servant and neither is he a second-class citizen in his own home.

I am glad we have struck a balance that works for us and DS doesn't expect constant drip feeding of treats and rewards etc.

I think you should absolutely go with your gut feeling on this, you'll feel so much better about yourself and your parenting. I think it will be short term pain for long term gain. It really doesn't matter whatever anybody else is doing - it really doesn't, what's important is you and your family. Go girl!

Yes it is the 'voice' that concerns me sometimes. I made the children play outside yesterday and asked them to stop coming in and out of the house constantly. I then went into the kitchen to sort some dishes and my daughter complained to my son saying 'it's not fair, mummy is allowed in the kitchen but we're not' and I was about to explain to her why I was in the kitchen and I just exploded (internally for once- I usually start shouting!! LOL). She has too much power for my liking!

Don't get me wrong, I am not a walkover and the children are really well behaved. This is an issue on the fringes of my parenting-psyche. It could just become something bigger, especially when my DD starts school and she becomes aware of what other children have. I am anxious about the constant birthday parties that seem to be on the horizon (inviting 30 children to a birthday party means 30 presents and that is frankly horrifying!) I want to be more like my 'stricter' friend- but that takes courage as it will mean sticking my neck out, telling people not to buy presents e.g. having that 'please, no more' conversation with my chid-free friend who loves to lavish my children with gifts. As Mintyy says, times do change- am I about to try and battle with something which is so widespread it is just part of life now- we live in the age of plenty so why am I trying to hold onto my own childhood upbringing?

I am on the dawning of a new era of my parenting and wanted to share with you/ask for your support.

Sorry this post is so long!

OP_i feel the same way.Our children are given far more of a "voice" than we had and they have far more available to them than we had.
I have had to accept that times change and as long as DD is polite,appreciates what she has (that's the biggest problem)and is kind to others then I will still give her choices.
I make a point of going through her toys (with her) every three months to sort out toys for the charity shop.
Manners are non-negotiable-if she wants something then that is negotiable.

You don't want to get in the habit of being a servant to your children! I don't feel like a servant to my DD (4.7) because I have brought her up myself and she has always cheerfully wanted to join in with whatever I am doing. Less "help" with the hoovering and window cleaning etc might sometimes be welcome! She is also good at entertaining herself because I have deliberately ensured that she is left to get on with things on her own since she was very small.

But I do sometimes feel like a servant to my DSSs (14 and 11) who have been brought up with a full-time nanny/housekeeper who has run around and picked up everything for them all week - and their parents/grandparents have done similar at the weekends. Plus they are very materially spoilt (far more so than my DD) and tend to think that life ought to be very easy.

I am absolutely not spoiling my dc and letting them be the boss. But they do have more treats than I had as a child. They have more books and clothes and toys too. But then when I was a child we could only have icecream from the icecream van, and it was sold in a block with a cardboard wrapper, because we didn't have a freezer. Etc. Times change.

Yes you are right modern life is very hard to navigate!
I think the two issues are linked- what I think I am getting at is that I (we?) feel like I am perhaps almost a servant (for want of a better word) to the children and the provison of toys and outtings and letting them call the shots to appease them in some way/avoid tantrums/make them happy is actually going to do them damage in the long run.

I read quite a few of the other parenting posts on mn before writing this post and many of them were from mums feeling guilty about being tough on their children. This is crazy! Why am I (we?) afraid to be tough?

I think that giving children lots of toys and outings is a different thing to letting them be the boss. So there are two issues in your post.

I don't buy masses of toys for my DD and I am very fussy about what she does have. I don't want my house littered with crap and I don't want her to have lots of things she doesn't love and value.

I do, however, let her make lots of her own decisions about her life (providing it doesn't get too badly in my own way). I think that modern life is very hard to navigate and that we all have to juggle multiple conflicting activities and make a lot of decisions and that the sooner my DD knows her own mind and is able to argue her point, the better equipped she will be to fend for herself in the long term as she will have had lots of practice at negotiation.

Hello
I am usually a lurker on mumsnet (sorry!) but for the first time in 4 years I'm driven to start a post!
A couple of things have started to 'niggle' about the way I am bringing up my children (DD4, DS3) To be honest, I think many families have the same issues but are in varying states of awareness about this!

When I look around the DC's bedrooms and around the house I feel a sense of panic about how much stuff they have. Then they eat half their dinner and then say "Is this enough to eat so I can have pudding?" and then they seem to have 'treats' of some form or another constantly- it's drip, drip, drip of presents and new toys all the time from me, Daddy, family and friends.

Then today I went to my friends house and the kids were doled out constant treats of ice lollies, biscuits etc etc. She is my best friend but I am starting to feel like we can't be together with the children because her children are so spoiled- constant daytrips, snacks, lollies and so so many toys- her kids are really horrible and I wonder whether this is the reason.

Then I spoke to my other friend this evening (who by comparison to my BF is really strict on treats) and she said she did not want any presents for her son's birthday because he has too many toys (although I think he doesn't have that much). She made me reflect on the way I treat my children and I admire her because she has the courage of her convictions to say this despite the inevitable complaints from her son.

So all this happens and it has got me thinking....
I think I want to change tack on the way the kids are brought up. I think I am pretty good as a mum- consistent, firm, loving (still prone to tempers, screaming and all the usual stuff however!) but I feel 'victim' to the pressure to get the kids all the 'kit', invite the whole class to a birthday party at the soft play centre (instead of inviting 5 friends over for afternoon tea which I would prefer) etc.

I'm waffling here, I guess what I'm asking for your opinion on is should WE all be concerned about our 'soft' parenting that this generation of children seems to be receiving? Do we all need to be a bit more like my 'stricter' friend?