Another Muslim gang raping and torturing young white girls...

(320 Posts)
endthiscowardice Tue 14-May-13 23:14:10

And yet again we are told that there is no racial or cultural element to this phenomenon.

I accept that absolutely child sex abuse is, horrifyingly, present across society.

But refusing to confront the ethnicity of the perpetrators/victims seems very unhelpful in addressing this particular problem. This is the nth gang like this with exactly the same profile of members, victims, and modus operandi.

Given the length of time most of these cases have taken to come to light, it's hard not conclude that the lives and rights of these girls were given a lower importance than 'cultural sensitivities'. Otherwise why were they disbelieved and a blind eye turned for so long, even when help was sought?

It makes me so angry that officialdom ignores this racial/religious elephant in the room. Members of these 'communities' are also too willing to deny the horror in their midst and aggressively claim their own victimisation. I've just watched a Muslim MP on Newsnight claim that he found Jack Straw's 2011 comments about this phenomenom (Muslim rape gang, vulnerably young white victims) 'offensive'.

More cases just like this are bound to come to light.

Am I the only one that feels infuriated by these flat-earthers who persistently deny the reality? And what can be done?

I'd be interested to hear the views of people from all backgrounds.

I've heard quite a few Asian Muslim leaders admitting that some Asian men prey on white girls specifically because they view them as worthless. One of those was speaking on Newsnight a few moments ago. I don't really think anyone who has any influence on these matters is really denying that there is some cultural bias to this. What I think they are trying to avoid is whipping up a frenzy of racial hatred towards the Muslim community when the reality is that the vast majority of the Muslim community are as horrified by these crimes as everyone else.

exexpat Tue 14-May-13 23:22:59
BackforGood Tue 14-May-13 23:28:52

Excellent post exexpat
That Guardian article is superb.

MissBlennerhassett Tue 14-May-13 23:36:01

Good answer exexpat. Another thread engineered to whip up a frenzy. <hides thread>

Caladria Tue 14-May-13 23:36:33

YY exexpat

Mitchy1nge Tue 14-May-13 23:36:38

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tethersend Tue 14-May-13 23:38:13

Do we know all the victims were white?

Do you have a link?

chickensaladagain Tue 14-May-13 23:39:22

There are bad people in all communities

The EDL recently published propaganda claiming that associates of the Rochdale gang were now working for taxi companies and take aways in your area so your daughters were at risk

This material was produced in several areas of the country hmm

This is not an Asian issue, this is a society issue

The truth of sexual abuse is that it is most often carried out by someone either known to or respected by the victim

We need to stop all abusers but we also need to teach our children self respect an self worth so they are less likely to be 'groomed' by anyone

K8Middleton Tue 14-May-13 23:43:01

What MitchyInge said.

And expat.

exexpat Tue 14-May-13 23:45:16

And of course if we are going to start linking religion to sex abuse, can I be the first to mention the Catholic Church? I don't think the Church of England has exactly got a clean record either. And there have been some pretty dodgy things going on in various other denominations. But at the moment it seems the main people we have to fear are light entertainment stars. Or we could just point the finger at men in general...

SisterMatic Tue 14-May-13 23:51:18

<hides thread>

endthiscowardice Tue 14-May-13 23:54:03

Yes, read my OP, sexual abuse of children takes place across all social groups. Why is this argument relevant to the case in today's news?

Stuart Hall, Jimmy Savile et al did not deliberately target young girls of a different race because they thought they were trash. They were indiscriminate in their abuse. And their crimes were appalling, but they did not beat, burn, torture and gang-rape their victims in the same way. And these were historical cases from the bad old days when there was far, far less awareness of sexual abuse than there is now. I'm not making any excuses for them, they deserve every punishment coming to them.

Is there a 'white community' anyway? I would argue not, unless you wish to lump together all people who are non-white as having the same cultural values, which is ridiculous. There are no 'white community leaders' who seek to represent the interests of whites as a cultural group. And how could there be, when whites in Britain come from every European nation, North America, NZ, Australia etc.? For anyone to argue that this is a homogenous group is crazy. His examples are taken from the world of 1960s-80s showbiz. Much more honest would be to replace 'white' with 'showbiz' and the point that the worlds of TV, radio, the BBC in particular were rife with enabled sexual abusers has been made many times.

I think the Guardian article is appalling. It is a journalist trying to be clever, that is all.

The low profile given to the Torbay case is also appalling, I agree with you on that.

But pointing out that sexual abuse occurs in all social groups does not negate the fact that cases like those in Oxford, Rochdale, Derby, Nottingham have a very specific pattern and slant.

There has been willingness to accept a culture of abuse within the Catholic church, so why not accept that there is a problem within a specific (almost exclusively Pakistani Muslim) community? Why is this not OK too?

endthiscowardice Tue 14-May-13 23:57:26

I'd like to point out that I understand also that the men in these gangs are a tiny minority who do not represent the values of all Muslims. But there are acknowledged to be problems within the Muslim community which relate to lack of respect for women - honour killings, domestic violence.

I am not a racist and find it very offensive to be called that.

K8Middleton Wed 15-May-13 00:00:46

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VicarInaTutu Wed 15-May-13 00:23:28

i think its wrong to focus on the religion and ethnicity of the defendants in the case.

all sexual abuse should be dealt with - regardless of the class, colour, race, or religion of the suspect.

men have preyed upon vulnerable young women for years. I really cant see how its helpful to brand any one section of society - each case must be dealt with on its own merit. Be that the gangs of men who abuse vulnerable girls, or the men who go abroad to have sex with underage girls, or the men who use their status to have sex or abuse underage girls.

i cant see the rational behind their actions mattering - what matters is how the victims are treated and listened to.

im a police officer.
my son is disabled and was recently sexually assualted. Police in his area dismissed him initially saying their was no evidence and it was one word against another - well in most sexual offences cases it is always one word against another - i think sexual offences are still taboo for many a beat bobby, sexual offences are uncomfortable to deal with - It shouldnt matter - it should be passed to a relevant department - but i can see from my boys experience that this does not always happen. I am giving them the benefit of a doubt - but let them try to dismiss him and i will be asking some very pertinent questions that i bet no one an answer....i know exactly what should have been done. and i know exactly what wasnt done.

i think you are wrongly focusing on the cases that make the news when the real problem is the hundreds of other cases that go no where fast.

ThePathanKhansAmnesiac Wed 15-May-13 00:24:00

Is that you Nigel?

exexpat Wed 15-May-13 00:33:31

(anyone else think the OP has spectacularly missed the point of the Guardian article?)

endthiscowardice Wed 15-May-13 01:34:42

I am not trying to goad anyone but have attracted a lynch mob anyway hmm.

I think there is a hate crime element to the Oxford case and its counterparts in Derby, Rochdale, Telford...

If the perpetrators were all white and the victims non-white would anyone seek to deny this?

I think that in these cases fear of offending cultural sensitivities or being accused of racism (^^ if you want to see how easily this happens, and how aggressively) is a factor in the appalling institutional failure to address these crimes at an earlier stage.

(FWIW this fear is not confined to crimes where the victims are white - the same could be said about other crimes where fear of racism deters intervention (honour killings, FGM, Victoria Climbie). I think there has maybe been one conviction for FGM and in my job I have met many women who have been subjected to it who were born in the UK.)

This board is called 'In the News' and I asked about a specific news story of the day, though. Not Savile/Stuart Hall, that there are threads about already.

As I said, if the ethnicities were reversed in the Oxford case a 'hate' element would be taken as a given, not dismissed as irrelevant. Anyone raising it as a possibility would not be subjected to the playground bullying that I have received. Why is it then racist to think it is wrong to dismiss it if the victims are white and the perpetrators non-white? Just asking.

I'm so sorry to hear about your son, Vicar and hope you get a satisfactory outcome.

Nice little rallying cry for your schoolyard gang there exexpat, let's not discuss these issues like adults, let's try and whip up a bit more pillorying of the OP, eh? ;)

BOF Wed 15-May-13 02:00:35

I think although you may be right that there is a sub-section of that ethnic community which holds a certain stereotype of 'white' women/girls in contempt, it is a far bigger problem that the British state appears to agree with them, and failed to protect them.

It may or may not have been framed by those men that the girls were somehow 'other' and hence ripe for abuse, but the reason that their pleas for help from the police went unanswered for so long is more related to class than race. It seems to me that social workers and police had a prejudice in their heads that these girls had somehow volunteered for their exploitation because of their bad 'backgrounds' and hence 'characters', so it wasn't properly pursued.

To me, it seems like a perfect storm of misogyny and class prejudice, on all sides. These girls were seen by everybody as expendable and beyond help. Which is precisely why they were targeted.

Darkesteyes Wed 15-May-13 02:06:23

Mysogyny and class prejudice. I agree. BOf if i could press a like button for your post i would.

chickensaladagain Wed 15-May-13 06:15:08

endthiscowardice

If you do not want to be accused of being a racist when you clearly are then don't make sweeping generalisations that clearly aren't there

A small group of men, treated a small group of women appallingly

The women were not believed when they first reported it

Many of the women & girls involved had gone through the care system, frequent absconders, drink and drug users -and you wonder why they weren't believed in the first instance?

I'm certainly not saying that is right-all allegations of abuse should be properly investigated but in this instance the reason they weren't believed was not because the men were Asian

The problem with some of the other crimes you mention FGM, honour attacks etc is that they go unreported, it's not that the authorities don't care, they just don't know

The majority of Asian men I know are very respectful of women. There are a lot of strong Asian women who 'wear the trousers' so to speak

The majority of white men I know are respectful however I also know abusers and if you have ever been to a city at 2am on a Saturday morning you will know how disrespectful people can be!

This is not a race issue, there is enough division in this country without posts like your original and subsequent ones adding to it

gorionine Wed 15-May-13 07:00:11

I wish I could talk rather than write this one as it is probably going to come out wrong but I will try my best.

I'd like to point out that I understand also that the men in these gangs are a tiny minority who do not represent the values of all Muslims.

I need to correct you there, they do not represent the values of ANY Muslims (by that I mean people following the teaching of the Quran rather than people who happen to be born in a Muslim family and incidentally have a Muslim name). Plying girls with drugs and alcohol, raping them, selling them on, this is vile beyond comprehension and far removed from Islamic teaching.

There are a lot of things to be sorted in our society, I think one of them is making sure we give children of both sex enough grounding and self respect for them not to be attracted by this type of pond life for a bit of 'affection'.

I am however of the "throw away the key" brigade for this sort of crime, whoever the perpetrator is.

RumbleGreen Wed 15-May-13 07:27:43

Ugh another one of these threads when white men do something similar and as we can see in the news there are plenty of white men being arrested for sexual offences at the moment no one seems to point of their race.

As always when members of a minority do something their minority status is made to be the cause as though the white majority don't people who do the very same thing.

Smudging Wed 15-May-13 07:57:11

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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