Is there a problem with Islam?

[LeafBud7]

My answer to this has always been, no, even if there are problematic elements within Islam especially for women, you can say the same about any culture or ideology, or religion.
I have been reading and thinking more about this recently, and i'm going round in circles. My brother in law is Muslim, and I am going to ask him what he thinks when I next get the chance for a proper chat, also a female colleague who I think would be open to talking about this..
In the meantime, what do you think? Is it as I have always thought, above, or is there something potentially within the religion what makes it more problematic, or is it not the religion itself, but more how things evolve in some communities? Is it all just a imaginary "problem" used by racists to whip up a storm?
One thing is for sure, it seems one is not really allowed to ask these questions in some circles, without being accused of being racist, which I find really unhelpful.

sorry, i had meant to put this on the general feminism board, can I move it?

I recommend the Muslim Women's Network as a starting point for resources.

www.mwnuk.co.uk/principles

Press the Report link and request that the thread be moved to where you'd intended it to go.

I think all religions are mysogynist. I believe that it's part of Islam that it's blasphemous to make changes to bring it up to date - I could be wrong.

I also think child marriage is part of the faith due to Muhammad marrying a small child.

So I think that it was devised thousands of years ago during mysogynist times (when haven't there been) and hasn't changed.

Of course it's interpreted for men by men at the expense of women - which all religions are, so until that changes, it will always be detrimental to women.

The problem is that Islam never had to undergo an Enlightenment in the way that Christianity had. Christianity too used to have a lot of the same problems that are now associated with Islam: the (and approval of) the killings of heretics, laws made on religious grounds, the extreme social and political power of religious institutions over the state. Christianity (and the Catholic Church in particular) had to retreat and to modify itself because it lost its extreme stranglehold on power. Islam hasn't had the equivalent of this, at least not on a wide enough international scale, only in certain countries (like Ataturk's reforms in Turkey).

@koolkatxx your post reads like ChatGPT.

The problem is that there is not enough pushback to the cultural practices of which you speak. Which makes it easier for that aspect to be treated as “Islam” overall. There needs to be far more separation of the two, and an understanding of the extent to which those cultural practices are a part of a noisy minority or, in fact the majority.

This. Also there isn’t sufficient regulation of imams.

Sita was 8 years old when she married Ram in Hinduism but normal Hindus even don’t know this (or that there was a time period less than a 100 years ago where girls who started their period in their father’s house were considered ineligible for marriage) because priests in India are educated about their religion in ways imams aren’t — usually because hindu priestly regulation is regulated.

Similarly you’d never think Christianity also believed in child marriage (for women) because the Vatican and CoE have ensured Bible translations don’t include it.

Until a single country commands the kind of authoritarian command / respect over Islamic education it will never move past the perverts, drug addicts and mysogynsts who become imams specifically because they can’t do anything else.

There was never a need to include Mohammed’s (pbum) wife’s ages in the qu’ran or hadith. The assumption is this was done to prevent said wife from remarrying (as the only virgin wife she was valuable even without children). And translations should omit this because the wrong sort of converts are attracted to Islam right now.

I don't mean to cause any offence and I don't always explain things very well but I just want to say if you want to learn about Islam etc there are many informative channels on YouTube. I have seen the holy humanist, apostate prophet and the friendly ex Muslim. They discuss all the issues within Islam and are very informative. Yes they have a biased view being ex Muslims but they definitely have compelling personal stories to tell. They have a good variety of guests too

It makes me so angry that women and girl's voices are silenced by these self appointed leaders! Whenever I hear quotes from Muslims, it's always some man, never a woman speaking for her community.

What are the qualifications and training of those interpreting Shariah which effects so many women's lives?

Not from what I'm seeing??

Any Muslim country continually places men's rights over women's.

But as a pp said, all religions are misogynistic

What are the qualifications and training of those interpreting Shariah which effects so many women's lives?

^

They need to be male??

There are two interesting issues for me:

1. Men who only seem to be interested in women's rights when they are a stick to beat Muslim men with. This makes it very hard to have real conversations. Women's voices are drowned out by men who wouldn't piss on us when we were on fire if a white atheist attacked us.
2. Resource guarding and misogyny. I'd argue that real, problematic social issues for women stated with fixed agriculture. Hunter-gatherer societies typically have to value women's labour as it supplies most of the calories; Piss the women off and you don't eat. Once you can store grain, being big and strong means you can control women. Countries with enormous resources; gold, diamonds, oil, tend to the bad side. For poor people, women, minorities etc. The powerful are so rich and powerful, they don't have to listen to anyone else. The don't have to grow, evolve, change, because they don't have to fit in anywhere, they make the rules. Hence the Saudis. Everyone needs them too much. Oddly, renewable resources are a feminist issue.

I think we frame this along religious line.

We should be framing this along authoritarian v liberal lines.

Both Islam and Christianity have long histories with periods of liberal dominance and authoritarian domination.

Any kind of power or organisation system which is authoritarian tends to favour males and discriminate against the interests of women. Be it political or religious or commercial.

One you understand this, and start to realise more about Islam's golden eras of enlightened liberal ideals and leadership it frames everything very differently.

What we are seeing is efforts of men who seek power to use it against women for their own benefit. This isn't religious. This is about using religion as a tool for power rather than Islam being regressive and anti-women.

Consider the recent history of Afghanistan and how women only a few decades ago didn't have to live the way they do now.

'Is it all just a imaginary "problem" used by racists to whip up a storm?
One thing is for sure, it seems one is not really allowed to ask these questions in some circles, without being accused of being racist, which I find really unhelpful.'

How can you be racist when taking about Islam when Muslims are not a race?

There's a patriarchy in all the 3 big monotheistic religious that I just don't like.

Well feminism is believing women and men should have equal rights. It depends whether or not this promoted.

That is good that there are efforts within the muslim community to challenge and reform etc - do you know of any examples? I am guessing we do not tend to hear so much about those in the media..

Well exactly, it doesnt really make sense. I suppose because being muslim is often because one is of from a muslim-majority country, which has its own ethnicity so then it becomes very entangled with race or ethnicity.

If Sharia becomes law in Europe as millions want it to be western women are doomed.

Afghanistan may seem far away now but their reality may be our granddaughter's reality.

But you can't say this in public as apparently it's racist🤷‍♀️

yeah, that is pretty sickening.

On a global level there is a big clash between women’s rights and Islam as it is today, if you consider the current number of regimes and societies which severely repress women in the world , using Islam as the justification - eg Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi, also the prevalence of so-called ‘honour crimes’ outside those regimes.

Yes I also feel concerned about this long term future. There is a sense that "that could never really happen" but also, rationally, why not? Over a period of time. There is plenty wrong with western cultures and society, but i would still choose that any day over the restrictions of sharia law.