Depressed DM wanting to look after children

[SoulKitchen]

NC for this but some of you may recognise elements ... Would be really grateful for some advice on handling this situation.

DM has suffered from depression on and off all my life, and anxiety more or less all the time. The only people she is comfortable with are DC. We didn't see her for 14 mths from Oct 2013-Dec 2014, when she had a really terrible period of depression catalysed by an incident between the two of us. Normally, she puts me on a pedestal and I feel almost suffocated by her attention, so for her to turn on me after a misunderstanding was unprecedented. She would only communicate by text for all this time and at the start, called me some horrible things. Left me off her 2013 Xmas card to the family.

Just before Christmas past, she managed to come and visit us, after quite a few false starts where she would plan on coming then send me a text in the morning saying she was ill. She's now visited 3 times. (Though she only lives about 5 miles away, we are not allowed to go and visit her.) After the second visit, she texted to say she soon hoped she'd be able to look after the DC up to 5 days a week. I felt that that was preposterously unrealistic. After her latest visit, she again texted (she wouldn't actually talk to me face to face) that she hoped to take over the childcare 'in a few weeks' from our childminder.

This is the bit I'm struggling with. She refuses to discuss the 14mth period when she was angry, depressed and out of contact. I feel galled and frustrated by some of the labels she applied to me at that time, and want to talk about it and address it - it feels like such a huge injustice to me and I am desperate to clear the air - have felt as though I've been in limbo all that time. She's said 'don't ask me to discuss things I'm barely half-recovered from.'

I feel like it's all a big awkward pretence, her coming to the house to see the kids and talk about the fucking weather with me, when we have this huge elephant in the room that needs to be sorted out. I feel silenced. But at the same time - if I'm being honest with myself - I don't believe it affects her ability to look after my DC, and I know something like this shouldn't be used as some sort of bargaining chip: 'talk to me or you can't look after the DC'. I know that's not right. But it galls me! I also know that's the wrong response from me again, as of course she didn't choose to have depression and any horrible words from her to me were her illness talking. But just to brush it all under the carpet and pretend that everything's back to normal?? I don't know if I can do that.

Any advice really appreciated.

[missabc123]

doesn't sound as though any of your responses are "wrong" as you put it - perfectly reasonable to feel the way you do.

Also whilst she has depression, anxiety etc probably make her less able to manage her feelings and day to day life it doesn't give her a carte blanche to expect you to brush it under the carpet. It's ignoring the fact that you have feelings and placing her own feelings above yours. It sounds a bit manipulative of her to me. (yes depressed people can be manipulative as well as depressed!).

Sounds like it's going to cause more damage in the long run if things go unsaid, so is there a way to approach it gently (maybe with a mediator?) a bit at a time in a neutral space? Does she understand how much it's impacting on you?

Maybe you can write her a letter to explain what you're feeling; often the written word can have more impact, although I would try to word it very carefully to avoid stoking the flames...maybe put across that what's happened has really hurt you, that you understand she is depressed but you are also affected, and brushing it under the carpet hurts. Put in that you love her as well! Mitigate any negative with extra reinforcement of the positive...

Just a suggestion; dealing with severely depressed people can be a nightmare (I know from experience with my ex), especially as its easy to let the bad behaviour go by without bringing it up for fear of making them worse; but if there's a way to approach it gently yet seriously and without upsetting them further I think they should be challenged if warranted, in an adult manner....

[Joyfulldeathsquad]

My mother was depressed all my childhood. She was admitted to hospital a few times. It gave her the excuse to treat me and my db terribly. However she doted on my dd1 so I let dd1 stay with her. We got to a really weird place where she assumed she also had parental responsibility and it became a struggle. People overlooked my mother behavour because of her illness but I really think she played in it to get her own way. If j tried to discuss things with her she would Storm out. She also had her totally incorrect version of things that she would not budge on or ever apologise.

I really recommend the book depression fall out. It was a lightbulb moment BUT my mother could be manipulative and nasty and that's not down to depression.

I wouldn't let her take the kids. It will end in disaster. It's not as if it's one afternoon,she is hoovering up all their spare time and I'd be suspicious of that.

I come to terms with my mothers behavour when I realised that I could never 'fix' her or changed the way I spoke to her it would never work because there would always be somthing else that set 'her off'

This isn't your fault. So don't do anything you don't want to do. She doesnt automatically have the right to spend time with your kids. They need reasonable sensible people around them.

[missabc123]

Joyfull I think you have put it much better than I did!

Sometimes with difficult people you have to draw boundaries, this is the only thing that worked with my severely depressed ex and father of my baby...he became a nightmare - refusing to claim benefits for 18 months, not looking for any work, and racking up a severe amount of back rent owings (we lived separately). He would come and eat at my place and borrow more and more money, and his behaviour and habits became stranger and stranger. He also became incredibly passive / emotionally aggressive when I challenged him on his issues - throwing it back in my face and saying the issues were all mine, not his. This on top of me having a new baby and without any support from my "partner" - in fact the opposite of support. The relationship fell apart. His "crisis" overshadowed my issues and shut me out in the cold, giving me serious PND.

Despite trying to help him for years eventually the only way I realised I could get through to him was issue firm ultimatums - that he seek mental health support, and prove he was getting it, and that he sign on for benefits (with proof) or he couldn't see DS. This was the only thing that worked. And even that took kicking and screaming to get him to sort it (and a lot of lying and manipulation his end - it was like torture). Fortunately when he was more sorted out he became a nicer person, and we are getting on mostly ok now. But the only thing that got him to do it was me being extremely firm; hard to do with a manipulative depressed victim-mentality person but I got there in the end. Never want to go through that again!!

[LastingLight]

Apart from obviously needing to talk to her about what happened in those 14 months, do you feel she can be trusted with the DC? Is she healthy enough?

[SoulKitchen]

Many thanks for your replies, I really appreciate it.

LastingLight she is at her best with children, is entirely focused on the DC and has all sorts of techniques up her sleeve to dissipate stressful situations. She always seems to know the right things to say and the DC are so calm and peaceful in her company. (I, on the other hand, am completely uptight and tense!) I wish I was like this with my DC. More often than not I can't think what to do in a given situation and end up using threats, which I know are a quick fix but nothing more. Anyway, I think the only bit she might struggle with is if they want to go playing with other kids in the street and she has to go up and down knocking on doors, talking to other adults and trying to get them to come home. I don't think the actual care she would give my DC at home gives me anything to worry about - in some ways, it would be easier if it did as I would have good reasons to say no then.

I hadn't thought about the idea of her being manipulative. I don't think she consciously is, and honestly think the idea would devastate her. She would say that she can't talk about things because it's just too painful, and she literally, physically can't. missabc, writing a letter is a good idea and I will think more about it, though I did this a year or so ago to try and explain my part in the original misunderstanding, hoping to make her understand where I was coming from and smooth things over - and she was unable to open the letter for something like 6 weeks, she was so scared of what it might contain. From one of her sisters I got the idea she thought my letter might say something awful like 'I can't handle your crap any more; I never want to see you again.' - but I wouldn't ever, EVER say something like that to her and I found it unbelievable she could even think I would write a letter like that. When she did eventually open and read it she said something like 'Your letter was so painful I don't know if I'll ever be able to reply' ... and she hasn't. Such one-sided communication.

it doesn't give her a carte blanche to expect you to brush it under the carpet. It's ignoring the fact that you have feelings and placing her own feelings above yours. Thanks for this, it's good to hear - but at the same time I can't really see any solution but to keep subjugating my feelings (is that the right word?) for a while longer. Though everything in life takes her so long to do that I honestly think it might be years before she feels ready to talk - if ever.

I still don't think I can give her any sort of ultimatum - I just don't think this is right - would anger her and make her feel blackmailed into talking to me. Thanks for the sounding board ... I honestly don't know if I see a solution but I appreciate you all taking the time to reply

[HeyheyheyGoodbye]

Tbh mate if she's saying she is 'barely half-recovered' and so can't talk to you then how can she be recovered enough to look after the DC? That's not to say she can't see them and spend lots of time with them, but I think you would be right to say no to full-time childcare.

Really sorry you're going through this. Mental illness is such a bugger for loved ones as well as the sufferer

[SoulKitchen]

Well, heyhey, I'm guessing she'd say that the two things are completely different. Talking to the DC about birds flying past and planting sunflowers and the ancient wonders of the world is a world apart from her admitting that she's terrified of me and everyone else and can't bear the slightest verbal conflict or confrontation, and discussing why she called me cruel and stupid

[SoulKitchen]

(Sorry if that sounded brusque heyhey, I didn't mean it to )

PS it's actually only 2 days after school that we use a childminder for - she offered 5 because she didn't actually know then how many days per week I work ... as she doesn't talk about anything. I think she's afraid to ask me any questions about anything consequential, almost, for fear she might say the wrong thing or appear nosy. She will only stick to 'safe' subjects. In three visits since December, for example, she hasn't once asked "How's X?" (my DP, whom she hasn't seen yet as he works quite late.) It's just all pretty sad.

[missabc123]

Soul - as much as you care about your mother and are scared of putting the cat amongst the pigeons you really can't compromise on your own feelings as much as you are. You will kill yourself slowly by letting them get brushed under the carpet. You're trying to do the right thing by someone else; the important thing is to do what's right for you and your DS. It doesn't sound to me as though that is allowing the situation to remain as is.

Also don't underestimate the manipulative side of things. If she is being manipulative she might be doing it unconsciously - but if it were a friend in a similar situation what would you think?

You can have all the patience in the world with depressed people (I know from experience) but eventually their lack of being able to confront things (even simple things) will drive you nuts. Also she will probably pull the situation out pretending nothing's happened as long as she can - it could go on for years if not the rest of her life and you might go mad with it!

That said it sounds like a real pickle and I do understand you wanting to tread lightly with it. Do you have a mutual friend who could talk to her on your behalf, very gently?

You have my sympathies as I know how hard it is and how crazy making it is trying to communicate with these people!!

[SoulKitchen]

Thanks so much, missabc - sounds like you've definitely had experiences similar to mine! I will have to be a bit more forceful about trying to get her to talk - I suspect this will make her retreat and put up barriers even more, but I have to try, there's nothing else for it. I have to do it myself, really, there's no mutual friend. She has sisters but I totally can't ask any of them, unfortunately, though they're sympathetic to the whole situation. They've got their own crosses to bear depression-wise - one actually threatened suicide due to the situation my DM and I had got ourselves into

[Joyfulleastersquad]

soul I can really relate to your mother changing around your dc as my mother did. Which led me to believe that my mother was capable of pulling her self together when she chose to.

Depressed people are depressed all the time. They can't pick and choose when they feel well enough to talk and who to.

When she tells you she can talk as its too upsetting it's ger way of getting you to STFU. Don't fall for that. What if one of your children had an accident and she refused to tell you what happened or talk about it as she felt it was too upsetting?

Honestly I've been there. There were times my mother was seriously ill but there were also times when she wasn't and had terrible behavour and her 'depression' got her away with it.

Your mother doesn't want to discuss with you want happened because she doesn't want to. You don't matter.

She does want full access to your kids regardless if she has treated you terribly.

She is also letting you believe that your children make her feel better- like a crutch. Which is actually unhealthy.

how was your relastionship with her when you were growing up ?

[HeyheyheyGoodbye]

No worries Soul - Joyful said it better than me. I suffer from mental illness btw, and for me everything is connected rather than compartmentalised, as it sounds like it is with your DM, so that informed my response.

[notquitegrownup2]

Talking to the DC about birds flying past and planting sunflowers and the ancient wonders of the world is a world apart from her admitting that she's terrified of me and everyone else and can't bear the slightest verbal conflict or confrontation

Oh goodness, that's my mum!! She took on my 8 year old nephew for 6 months of his life when his parents marriage fell apart, and she transformed his life. She was amazingly good with him, but cannot speak to adults - as I have known since my early teens when she stopped relating to me. Even now, as her memory has largely abandoned her, she's great with the kids, but restricts the conversation so that she only gets positives from adults - "You are all fine, aren't you?" "How are you? All so happy?" The answer has to be yes - the consequences of replying otherwise would just be too complicated.

Sorry, slight hijack there, as no advice on your question at all, but lots and lots of recognition as to how your mum works.

[missabc123]

Soul - it sounds as though you need some counselling for this. Even if you feel everything else in your life is good and you are coping it really could help. You can get a few sessions free on the NHS so it's worth a try.

Also look up "assertive behaviour" - you probably already know lots about it but there are some great sources online and it might help to approach it using those methods - if you come from a "you're ok, I'm ok" standpoint ensuring that both your needs are being addressed you might find a positive way to approach it. Also look up passive aggressive behaviour (again you probably already know what it is but when I did proper research into it over my ex it explained so much!! Crazy making behaviour). It sounds like it might be that too!

Finally sounds like she's the one subtly blackmailing you, not the other way around. It's "don't you dare talk to me or I'll do something stupid" - not allowing your feelings into the equation. That's quite aggressive behaviour be it overt or not.

Could your partner talk to her? If he knows her they might be able to chat although I appreciate you both might have reasons against this.

Can't believe what you said about her sister though!! Despite her MH problems that sounds like a serious case of manipulation (possibly subconscious on her part, but shocking!). Sorry - don't mean to sound too unsympathetic there but, what??!

[SoulKitchen]

Thanks again for all your wise insights - it's really helpful. Yeah, I know I need some sort of counselling, have tried to sort it out once or twice and failed, but I should persevere. I can get very angry, lose my temper with the DC and be really irritable at times. The opposite of the way I was brought up.

When she tells you she can talk as its too upsetting it's ger way of getting you to STFU. Don't fall for that.

I understand what you're saying, Joyful, but have trouble thinking of how I'd put it into practice ... if I were to say 'Mum, we really do need to talk, I'm not sure you've quite realised how all this has affected me and the limbo I've been in for almost a year and a half now' I would expect her to get quite indignant as she's the one who's actually been seriously ill. I think she'd be incredulous at me, at the idea that I was actively trying to increase her pain, by forcing her to talk about stuff. She'd say something along the lines of 'would you ask someone with a broken leg to get up and start walking on it over and over again?' And I believe her when she talks about the 'agonies' she's had.

Growing up - it's almost too long to go into, Joyfull! It was a very very unusual household (just me, DM and DF).

Missabc, she's even more scared of my DP as he is a lot more 'no-nonsense' than me and comes from a family (unfortunately) where people did a lot more shouting and screaming than in mine (where there was exactly none) but did get things out in the open and clear the air. Thanks though.

[SoulKitchen]

Sorry - so in a nutshell, I think she'd come back with all these reasons why she couldn't discuss things, and then what do I do? I honestly can't say 'if you don't talk, you can't see the kids' ... it's not right

[missabc123]

if you don't feel you can talk to her now then maybe need to work on your own feelings about this (through therapy or maybe a short course or something); it sounds you don't seem to be able to separate out her behaviour and her condition yet these are two separate things. I can see it comes from a place of compassion on your part but sometimes compassion is misplaced; particularly with people you are close to and have long developed relationships / habits.

It sounds as though you have had to keep your feelings under a lid your whole life (especially if, as you say, there was no raising of voices in your family) and also as she has a really long history of mental health issues. This is not healthy and doesn't mean you can't change these patterns now although it doesn't have to be a confrontational approach. Just gently assertive and taking your own feelings more seriously.

With my depressed ex I was compassionate as could be until I hit a point whereby things had to change. He behaved appallingly and always used his MH problems as an excuse not to confront these issues or change. This caused me so much grief and stress it made me ill.

What do your friends think about the situation? You need an objective viewpoint; a therapist or friend you trust.

BTW I'm also impatient with my little one!! As long as you temper it with good times I think it's fairly common so don't beat yourself up too much. Also if you are happier in yourself you will probably be more patient...

[crazycatlady82]

I'm sorry I must admit I haven't read all the previous posts.

My mum has suffered from mostly anxiety and some depression her whole life. Like yours she was quite suffocating towards me but especially my younger brother.

Like your mum she feels most comfortable texting. She rarely phones.

She did EVERYTHING for my brother making him helpless and then didn't realise my brother had a brain tumour thinking he was fine and making every excuse under the sun for his tiredness, dizziness, poor concentration etc. He had surgery and is now physically fine but still mentally damaged by his upbringing. He doesn't speak to my mum or dad unless they are giving him money. Which they do, so they see him for the 10min handover of cash once every 6 weeks.

I am now pregnant and feel the maximum time I will allow my mum to spend alone with my children is a few hours per week (damage limitation).

I have my own mental scars from being brought up by a mum who suffered from anxiety and depression (untreated) and I completely lost out on my 20s addressing these.

I can't risk letting my own children fall victim to the same treatment, furthermore my husband won't let me.

Your mum is probably quite different to mine but consider the consequences very carefully before you let her care for your children on a regular basis.

It's really really hard.

xxx

[zipzap]

I don't know much about the depression side of things - but could you treat her want to do childcare instead of a child minder in the same way that others with an overbearing mum or mil might do?

So say it's lovely that she's volunteered but you're happy and the dc are settled with the CM and that you don't want the dc to get confused between when she is 'Granny' and when she is effectively being the childminder - that to have the regular commitment isn't fair on her and particularly if you need to change hours or do extra and it conflicts with what she fancies doing or if she's ill or whatever. However, you'd love it if she stayed their special granny, could help out with ad hoc childcare (say if a dc is too ill to go to childminder or you need to do a different day at work occasionally) and just see her for other normal granny things rather than as a formal childcare fixture.

[Bilberry]

I don't think you should let someone provide childcare for work whom you can't talk to. If she does this on a weekly basis there will be issues you will feel you need to discuss which may be conflicting enough that she will want to shy away from the discussion. Also if/when her depression worsens and she feels unable to look after them you will be left high and dry as far as work is concerned. However, asking her to look after them an afternoon each week to enable you to rest/go shopping/get your hair done may be more realistic.

[SoulKitchen]

Oh gosh, zipzap, "other normal granny things". There is nothing else, I'm afraid. She could never take them places, and never come with us on days out. These are just not options for her. The only thing she can do is come to our house, sit and play/talk with the kids (I'm not underestimating the value of this; in fact I think it's the most important thing she could possibly do.) She won't even have a meal with us in our house, even if she's stayed all day.

Unfortunately, I know that any suggestion that they're better off at the childminder (and I'm not sure they are as my CM is a bit rubbish tbh ) would be met with utter, total devastation. She'd be distraught at the thought that we valued someone else as carer of the DC over her. She has nothing else in her life, really, other than the hope of seeing the DC again soon whenever she leaves. She does a lot of reading, but has no friends or activities. I remember once when DS1 was tiny and she would look after him for 3 days x fortnight, worrying out loud to her that this was maybe too much of an imposition on her and she said in disbelief "It's all I want to do!"

crazycatlady, sorry to hear that too

missabc I really do want to talk to her now! The sooner the better - I'm just kind of trying to anticipate her responses as I think she will just try and shut me off ... My friends are veyr sympathetic though I don't get the chance to talk about this to any of them v often. It's ok though.

it sounds you don't seem to be able to separate out her behaviour and her condition yet these are two separate things. I'm not 100% sure what you
mean by that - do you mean you think her refusing to talk is not part of her depression, but just a feature of her personality?

Thanks all, and sorry if it seems I'm just throwing obstacles back at your helpful suggestions, I'm not meaning to - but tbh it's nice just to be able to talk about it

[SoulKitchen]

Bilberry yes thanks, that's a possibility, though I work 3 days/week and if I gave the DC to my DM one day I'd only then see them for one afternoon a week - and I'd be doing this for her, not me. I want my kids both of my free days tbh.

[OutsSelf]

What about explaining that the last year has been so painful, and it's not that you don't think she wouldn't be brilliant with the kids, but her being around in your life this much this soon would be too hard for YOU. You were devastated by her loss and you need time to heal? It's not that you are demanding she speak to you in return for contact but you need time to come to terms with the effect of her illness on your life, and you are worried about it happening again and you don't feel yet ready to risk letting her in for you or the kids because what if she has a relapse? You need to provide security for your family and right now you don't feel secure in the relationship with her.

[missabc123]

sorry for not being clear Soul - I meant that yes I think her refusal to talk (and putting up walls despite your clear need and right to do so) is part of her personality and distinct from her illness (not her illness, although they may be related to an extent).

I just meant don't put her poor behaviour down to the depression or excuse it because of that. Make a distinction between the depression and the manipulation / passive aggression. On her part she probably doesn't realise that's what it is and is doing it subconsciously.

Sorry; I don't mean to sound harsh or too judgemental. I'm sure she's not doing it consciously if that's what it is. It just sounds like it to me from reading this.

I hope you find a way to sort it out and wish you luck...x

[missabc123]

re. 3rd para above - I meant it just sounds like subconscious manipulative behaviour to me, not that she's consciously being manipulative.