My son is behaving like an absolute sh*t at school - any advice welcomed

[Paula1]

My ds 4yrs 4mths started school full time in September. He absolutely loves going, really enjoys doing his work, but his teacher says that he is the most disruptive, disobedient, defiant child that she has ever taught. Apparently, he is always leaning/pushing/poking the other children, won't stop when he's told not to do things, always fiddling with things like pencils/books etc when he's supposed to be listening to the teacher (and all the others are behaving), won't stand up straight when it's time for prayers at home time, makes a noise when he's supposed to be quiet... everything just about that makes the teachers day a complete misery. She says he's not the naughtiest in the things that he does, but that he just looks at her, smiles, says sorry and then carries on doing whatever he is supposed to be not doing!! He had gone to Nursery full time before school, and had not behaved like this there, and he doesn't at home either - he knows that No means that. I don't know what to do. It is so horrible being told that your child is like this, it makes you feel that you've failed completely. Anyone have experience of anything like this?

[WideWebWitch]

Paula, how awful to be told that, I can imagine how you feel. See my ds on the thread "4yo is turning into Kevin the teenager".

Has the teacher made any suggestions? It does sound like a joint strategy needs to be agreed - you can't do all the behaviour management if this happens while she is supervising him. What about a star chart? My ds (just 5) is responding really well to this. We've got a super duper home made one with velcro stars and he gets 1 star for being good getting ready for school 7.30 - 8.30am, 1 for being good from 3.30 - 5.30pm and another for 5.30pm - bed and going to bed with no nonsense. 3 stars = tiny packet of chocolate magic stars. So far in 5 days he's only failed to get 2 stars out of a possible 15. Could you modify one to include things at school? And have it at school and home?

We've also instigated a bad behaviour book which is working really well. (Not that I think it's necessarily appropriate in your case) Just to explain, in my case it was ds' violence so I wanted to a) record it, b) give myself a breathing second before reacting by writing it down c) show him that I was recording it and that sanctions would be imposed if I had to write in it 3 times in a day (plus he didn't get his star). He has had his favourite game and action men taken away for a week as a result of these incidents. Because it was totally unacceptable behaviour there was no way I could do the praising good and rewarding bad thing: He HAD to know that we would not stand for violence. But in your case it might be useful to ask the teacher to write down everything just so you are both monitoring it and you get an idea of exactly how bad it is? Could there be any triggers: food? tiredness? Boredom? I know it's work for her but you need to know more to tackle it I think. 4y 4mths is still very young - full time school would have been too much for my ds at that age (not saying it's wrong for your ds at all) just that it is hard for them to behave at that age IME) and my ds wouldn't have behaved well either.

You ds doesn't sound that terrible - it sounds more like he's testing her and he's wilful more than anything. Please don't feel you've failed, you haven't! I understand the feeling, I felt like the worst mother when my ds was being awful in front of my family. My ds' bad behaviour wasn't at school though, it was all reserved for me! Good luck. Maybe you'll get some suggestions from teachers?

[WideWebWitch]

I meant praising good and ignoring bad, not praising good and rewarding bad!

[Paula1]

Thanks WWW, I went to see the teacher yesterday, and her main worry is that he is really bright, and won't get the most out of his education if he doesn't sort his behaviour out. She says that he is the first child in 20 years of teaching to openly defy an instruction. She says that most children want to please the teacher, not make them angry. He is a wilful child, he also does get tired so it could be to do with that. There is quite a big deal about food at school too, he knows what he likes and if there is something on his plate that he dislikes then he won't eat anything. He has to have school lunches, they don't allow packed lunch. I have asked them not to give him spaghetti hoops and beans as they are his worst dislikes, but the teacher says that his behaviour doesn't seem to have anything to do with whether he eats or not. I have this horrible feeling that he'll end up doped up on ritalin or something if he doesn't sort it out. Also, all the other mums will be saying 'keep away from that naughty boy' and not inviting him to parties and stuff. He's not really like that, that's why it seems so awful

[bayleaf]

Paula - It does sound as though the teacher is being ''supportive'' and really wants to help your ds not just moan about him - so I think you need to try and make an appointment to have a longer sit-down with someone ar school and discuss strategies. Is there any chance that you could attend school - even if only for an odd session not as a regular thing - which would either give you the chance to view his behaviour first hand or to make him behave as he does at home in front of the teacher so that she can see what he is normally like. GIven your determnation to sort it out and the school's recognition that ds is bright but needs help adapting to his new environment and behavign appropriately I'm sure it won't come to drug therapy!
Good luck
bayleaf

[ScummyMummy]

Paula, I have a slightly different perspective on this. I think it's EXTREMELY unprofessional of this person to have told you that your son is the most disruptive, disobediant, defiant child she has ever taught. I also wonder where on earth she's been teaching if she's never come across challenging behaviour of this nature before and has no strategies to deal with it. If she's never come across a child openly defying her in 20 years of teaching I'd say it's about time she had her experiences and skills broadened a bit. Perhaps your boy will be the one to do it. From what you've said, his nursery and you had/have no problems with him so perhaps the teacher needs to look more closely at whether she and the school are meeting his needs and what THEY can do to help- especially if he is brighter than average or has a very definite, stubborn attitude to some aspects of life. With a four year old a little understanding behind the discipline is very helpful, IMO. By all means try star charts, talking to your son, etc and underline that you expect him to behave well at school but I think you and your son should expect better from this teacher as well. Simplistic, I know but I much prefer a "we're not sure how to handle him, can you help?" approach when there are problems to a "your kid's a monster, sort him out" one.

[Clarinet60]

Paula, my children aren't school age so I've no real advice, just opinions. Firstly, he's very young. Some believe 4 is too young to be at school full time anyway. As for getting the best out of his education, how can the teacher make a judgement/prediction like that at this stage? It's ridiculous. At 4, a friend of mine used to regularly try to scratch the other children's eyes out! This had no bearing on the way she was at 7, 8, 14 , 18 or 28. It's early days. Give him time to settle down. Is it possible for him to attend for half days? The food issue is a hard one too, as many parents would be able to make a much more nutritious packed lunch than what is served in some schools. Things like spaghetti hoops would not do my ds any good (colouring sends him wild). None of which is much help to you right now, but best wishes anyway.

[robinw]

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[Paula1]

Robinw, he knows that no means no at home, but seems to be pushing the teacher as far as he can when he's at school. He does go and stand in the corner, but if he's left say at his desk he just carries on doing the naughty behaviour. He is very young I know, and there are only 2 children in the class younger than him, but the teacher didn't seem to think that this made that much of a difference. The teacher is being very supportive, and does want to sort this problem out with us so we are lucky in that respect at least (although, for the fees we're paying I wouldn't expect any less). She also stressed to me that he is not the 'naughtiest' child in the actual things that he does wrong, just that he won't stop doing them when told to. I made the mistake of looking up ADHD on the internet earlier, don't think I even want to contemplate that one!!

[robinw]

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[anais]

My feelings are that he's testing the boundaries, and IMHO, it seems better to be one of the confident ones rather than the meek little mice afraid to speak up for themselves (like I was).

He is very young, and I agree that it does seem a lot to expect from such little ones.

WWW has some good suggestions, however, again, only my opinion, I feel that this approach very much focuses on the negative. What about making a point of writing down all the good behaviour, so that he can look back and feel proud, rather than seeing that all his bad behaviour is what has been noticed and remembered. To my mind, that's not the best message.

Extreme option I know, but would it be possible to take him out of school and defer it for a few months/a year?

Other than that I would suggest arranging a meeting and sitting down with your ds's school and seeing what they suggest. Surely trained, experienced teachers must have some idea of how they would expect the situation to be handled?

HTH

[lilly72]

I completely agree with what scummymummy says...my friends and i were recently discussing how easy it seemed for the teachers in our local junior school to be negative about the kids rather than positive..surely constructive criticism is the answer not labelling your child THE most destructive, disobedient etc. I believe it is important to keep talking with the school but also with your son..what does he say about it?

[bayleaf]

OH I just hHAVE to stand up for teachers here - In my experience we spend our WHOLE time being overly positive - we're practically not allowed to say ANYTHING negative on reports and yes of course I believe in accentuating the positive and praising first etc etc etc but the reality of the situation is often that parents get a totaly UNrealistic picture of what their child is like/can do because of this ''must be positive'' trend. OK my experience is in secondary - but I'd be amazed if it was very different in most primary schools.
I'm interested to hear that this is in the private sector - from my very limited experience via friends' chldren they do tend to be less influenced by the politically correct ''postive speak''.

[KMG]

Paula1 - I don't know what to say. Yes, I know exactly how you feel. I feel like I've dedicated the last 5 yrs to raising my dss, and ds1 behaves so badly from time to time. If he was from a 'bad' background, I'm sure it would all be blamed on that ... but he's not!

I do share ScummyMummy's concern about the professionalism of the teacher to say some of the things she has. The nursery teacher of my ds1 said some things and wrote in his report some things that I found very upsetting. Some people here thought it was unprofessional, I wasn't so sure, she was such an experienced teacher, and everyone spoke highly of her. But now we have moved and the difference in the schools and attitude of teaching staff is amazing. Now I feel about 70% critical of the previous teacher. His new teacher read his report and (unprompted) said that he thought some of the comments were 'out of order'.

I shudder to think what would have happened to ds1 if he'd been at school full time when he was just 4. (He started when he was 5.2). 4 is very, very young for full time formal schooling, especially for some boys.

[KMG]

What I wanted to say is - it's not your fault. Some children are like this. Definitely arrange to see the teacher again. Ask her what she suggests you should do. It's obviously a private school - do they have a SENCo? They are good people to talk to.

If the teacher/school has no experience of children like this - I don't think it's particularly unusual behavious for a 4-yr-old, then maybe there are better places for your child to be?

[ScummyMummy]

Didn't mean to be harsh, robinw. Or slate teachers in general, Bayleaf. to you both. But I do agree with KMG, Anais and others who have said that this kind of fidgety impulsive behaviour is by no means unusual for 4 y.o.s, particularly boys perhaps, and I'm very surprised that she hasn't experienced it in a career spanning 20 years. I also think that it is not just pc gobbledigook to expect teachers to speak constructively to parents about any problems that are happening with their child- this isn't the same thing as glossing over the fact that there IS a problem in the first place- and I really don't think that expressing the opinion that the child is the "worst" ever met in any respect is particularly helpful.
FWIW, I do agree with robinw and others that the expectations do seem very high in this instance and it is possible that your ds just CAN'T meet them at this stage in his development, Paula. (Actually, I don't think I could meet the no fidgeting with pens criteria now but it doesn't mean I'm not listening, necessarily!) Anyway, hope the situation improves. I think it's a good sign that he enjoys school so much, at least.

[WideWebWitch]

Let us know how you get on Paula. Anais, I think we'll have to agree to disagree about our methods

[Wonderwoman]

You are not alone - I have expereinced exactly the same situation, and know exactly how you feel! 12-months on, let me summarise my dds progress to date:

DS joined pre-school nursery at 3.5 years and soon following (2/3 months) I was informed that he was being disruptive; I was mortified! He had also had an agressive incident with a teacher (don't touch me, I won't go sort of thing) which led to the situation coming to a head. The teacher and I agreed upon a 'naughty book' policy whereby she would write inthe book what naughty misbehaviour my dds had done that day. The purpose of the book was 3-fold: 1) I could determine what constituted 'bad' behaviour (very important as the schools definition and your own may supriingly differ), 2) so I could discuss each individual incident at home directly with my ds and 3) my ds would learn that whatever he did at school would be recognised at home, and so he could not escape punishment by playing the Jeckyl and Hyde role.

This route gave me a suprising new insight into my ds, and also made me take a more proactive role with the schools management of my ds. I learned through this daily dialogue that my ds was only being disruptive when he was bored, as again it was recognised that he was very bright. He was also experimenting with the discipline boundries and would constantly question his teacher as to 'why to we have to this now type of thing'(this was seen as disruptive) and even play the teachers up up, for example, stating that red was blue, and green was yelow etc when asked, even though he clearly knew all of his colours. Also, he was very energetic, couldn't sit still type of thing, and therefore if he didn't move around frequntly he became 'disruptive'.

To cut a long story short, the book worked. Within 3-4 months he would proudly come home from school stating that he had been a good boy today! I also learned through discussing the incidents with my ds that he was not the only disruptive child, and made suggestions with the teacher as to how we could perhaps limit his interaction with other children who 'encouraged/provoked' this behaviour. This is vitally important as it doesn't take long for the other children in the class to identify the 'trouble-makers' and so ds would have the finger pointed at him for every incident (by the other children), even though he could have been at the opposite end of the classromm to where the incident had occured.

I hope that this advice will as a minimum let you know that you are not alone, and at best help you work out a method that help you and your ds get through this phase, as I am sure that this is all it is!

[tigermoth]

Your message about the behaviour book is very reassuring, wonderwoman. My 8 year old son is getting a behaviour book next week for home and school. He will get rewards (agreed with him) for good behaviour.

Like Paula's son, my son is reasonably OK at home and can be really good when he wants to be. He used to be far more badly behaved at home and I think his age and (I hope)our treatment of him has improved his behaviour. At school he has just had some verbal reasoning tests which indicate he is performing well below his ablity. His teachers say his behaviour (distraction, procrastination)is getting in the way of his education, hence the behaviour book.

I would love to believe that this book will work magic, but I am sceptical, I'm afraid. For years we have worked closely with his teachers, rewarded and punished till we are blue in the face, and for the last term had a formal reward system in place at home, reflecting the one he had at school. This worked up to a point,and I was surprisd by its effectiveness, but obviously it did not work that well or we wouldn't have this behaviour book now!

I think - hope - he will grow out of this and feel this is our best bet. Rewards/a behaviour books will help point him in the right direction, though.

As for the teacher's comment, I agree with scummymummy, surely after 20 years of teaching the behaviour she described could not have been so unknown to her. I think she could have put her point across far more tactfully.

Lastly regarding SEN. We have been told time and time again by this school that my son is not ADHD or anything like this because he chooses to be good at school when he wants to be and knows exactly how to behave. I have asked him when he has ignored me, done something stupid etc 'why am I cross with you?' he'll sweetly tell me exactly what he should be doing. 60 million dollar question is why doesn't he do it?

Will keep you posted about the behaviour book.

[bayleaf]

I spent a good part of yesterday evening mulling over Scummymummy's commments and my instinctive reaction (not hard to do when only watching Ulrika!). It's true that I still have pretty much a teacher's ''head'' on as dd is nowhere near school age yet and so I'm really not thinking as a parent in these situations. It never occured to me when I first posted that the teacher had done anything else except tell the whole truth about a difficult situation(admittedly rather more frankly than I might have !) and that being in the private sector she probably hadn't had her fair share of ''challenging'' behaviour''.
It's totally true though that just because all the teachers I know spend so long being overly positive about students and writing ridiculous ''can do '' reports that tell the parents nothing - there must still be odd ones out there behaving as staff did 50 years ago and reducing chldren to nothing by thoughtless and unnecessarily harsh comments.
I suppose only Paula can really judge this situation as only you can know the ins and outs of the situation and whether the school is trying to be supportive and 'nip this in the bud' or whether they really do just have thoughtless staff and unreasonable expectations. Fingers crossed that it IS the former!
Bayleaf

[tigermoth]

On one or two occasions I've also had '95% of our children behave better than you son' type of comments from teachers. It will be part of a general conversation about him (with lots of positives thrown in) not the main element. But I wonder if these comments act as shock tactics designed to a) to gee me up into getting stricter with my son or b) to see how much criticism of my son I am prepared to accept or c) a deep cry for help from the stressed teacher.

[bayleaf]

I suspect a, b and c Tigermoth. The 95% thing is possibly not strictly accurate - just the teacher trying to grab your attention and underline the fact that your son's behaviour in her opinion is not acceptable at school, or typical (tho the actual % who behave like that, could be much higher than 5%!), or to be ove-looked. Often parents ( not you I'm sure!) are so full of justifications and really really in denial about thier own child and how badly they can behave at school.

[KMG]

Paula - just wanted to say also, try not to worry about the future. This may just be a blip that he'll get over, and soon be really popular and get lots of invites to parties etc. But in particular the 'getting the most out of his education' thing. Af 3.5 I was told ds would be a late reader, and wouldn't be able to read phonetically (because of speech problems). At 4.5 I was told he would struggle at school, because he wouldn't concentrate. His teacher says he is one of the best at getting down and getting on with a task, concentrating, and persevering to the end. His reading is fantastic - far in advance of the rest of the class (according to his teacher), some of whom are nearly a year older than him. And he is in the top set for all subjects. I know that he doesn't look as though he is listening when you talk to him, but he quotes stuff back at you afterwards, word-for-word. He drove me mad in church today with his fidgetting, but afterwards it was clear he'd listened to the minister much better than I had!

OK. so maybe the teachers in the past said this stuff to shock me, and motivate me & ds into proving them wrong ... but this is just to encourage you that doom and gloom predictions are not always correct.

[KMG]

Tigermoth - good luck with the behaviour book - hope it works well for all concerned.

[robinw]

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[Tortington]

my son didnt listen toanything he was told until he was 8. he thought school was playtime, and the only way teachers could shut him up was to let him play on the mat with cars. now. although i havent read everyposting i understand that he is good at home and was good at nursery. please dont fall into the trap of thinking that the teacher must be right. it might not necessarily be so , as there are good teachers there are bad ones too remember. and i do think the issue of food is important , it is obviously going to affect his attention span if he isnt getting a lunch. just bevuase school sayd no pakced lunch i would speak to someone at the local education department and see what you can do about this. what would they do with children with special diets for instance? how much of an inconvienience for the school is it to make sure that your child eats? i should say it comes under their care and duty should it not. when my children were not concentrating in school ( because that is what it is lack of concentration) i offered to into the school - even taking a couple of hours out of work or uni to go in and sit - but not with my child - with another child, helping out in the class, the aim was to let my son know that i was there watching him. it was a pain in the arse - i had a million and one other things to do and work and uni stuff piling on top of me - but i showed school that i appreciated their concerns and i was willing to do something about it, but i had to see that school was trying too. i hope this helps - teachers arnt gods.