Hello everyone, I actually read old posts about this but wanted to hear more details since I am really despairing now.

I gave birth to ds1 10 months ago. Total trauma in the delivery room. No episiotomy. Ventouse and 3rd degree tears.

I have so much going on down there still that I started wondering if I will ever recover from this.

Sometimes hurting on the outside, sometimes aching on the inside, sometimes a feeling as if my soft tissues are burned off at the enterance. Sometimes I feel as if I was hit by a bus on the perineum. Sometimes I am totally fine.

Anyone experienced such complications and pain like this for months and months after the delivery?

i tell you what after i had my ds i felt like when i was stood up everything was going to fall out. I had good delivery, no tearing etc but still had that feeling, 2 and a half years on i still get it and its a horrible feeling it feels like loads of pressure inside and it hurts, feel like i have to move or everything will fall out! probably should see doc, both of us that is

I grazed with DD and it took about 2 years before I stopped feeling 'gritty' especially during sex.
I had no tear, graze or stitches with DS and was fine after about a week. I did think that tearing was supposed to heal better than an episotomy though.
Go and see your doctor, I never did but I'm sure they should be able to help you.

I had a third degree tear as well (amazing how many of us out there have had one, awful) and it took me about 2 years to feel normal again. I saw every specialist going (on the NHS and privately) who kept telling me everything was "healed", certainly didnt feel like that. I think when you've undergone such huge trauma it can take time to heal. Godivas- hope things start to improve soon, did you have any tests afterwards? I know in some hospitals they give women who've had bad tearing extra scans to check the muscle and I've even heard of women having physiotherapy.

I have been to several specialists who assured me that even though the trauma to the whole area was extensive I was on the mend. Given time, they said, I should be fine. But I don't think doctors get enough feedback from many patients who haven't recovered even after months and years. That is why I am interested in hearing other women's personal experiences.

franfoxy2003, have you had an ultrasound check-up recently? Are you sure this is not organ prolapse? Cystocele and Rectocele are the keywords you can google. Hope it's not that though, however I heard that it feels like things are going to fall out if you have organ prolapse.

theautomatic, I think I am going through something similar. Doctors telling me I have healed but the pain goes on. I have good muscle tone, front and back. So I have been told. And it feels like it too. No incontinence either, which is I am grateful for. Mine is more the tissues hurting. If you get the time to tell me details about your recovery and how "wrongly" you felt before you felt "normal" again (and how normal is that really?) I'd really appreciate it.

notsoteenagemum, I was wondering now that you don't feel gritty do you feel recovered really?

Thank you all!

Godivas I totally understand your desperation it really is the most horrendous feeling to be sore in your most sensitive place!
I had a vbac 5 months ago and bitterly regret it at the moment
I did not have bad tearing like you I had a long laceration to the labia and a split along its edge (which looks hideous to me)
and I just feel so sore still.
I cannot take my mind of it, its the first thing I think of when i wake which makes me feel very anxious and panicky, and then its on my mind all day, its an area that when you feel sore there you just cannot forget
Just wanted to let you know you are not alone its really shit isn't it!

oh and I also have this horrible feeling that when i'm sat on a chair and I cough I can feel i can feel the soft tissues around the entrance pushing out ( this has improved since the birth thankgod) This really turns my stomach to feel it!
anyone else have this ? does it go away with time?

I had a third degree tear, and appalling after care. It consisted of a consultant sticking his finger up my bum at my 6 week check up! Very sophisticated treatment...

I was in a lot of pain even 6 months after, went to see my GP who told me that it was nerve damage. It took over a year really to recover, and I have never really felt the same down below.

You have my sympathies, it really is awful.

You may not be surprised to learn that I am have an elective section for baby No2. due in 6 weeks.

You poor thing. Your experience sounds awful Godivas.

I would definately call myself a survivor, seeing as I'm currently 4 months pregnant for the 2nd time, which once I didn't think would be possible physically or mentally!

I felt in such a state I was unsure I'd ever be able to have a sibling for my son. My forcep birth ended in a bad 2nd degree, which got infected, bursting stitches and causing awful scarring. I then had several injections in the scar tissue to resolve it, before finally (after a serious complaint by my GP to the hospital to pull their bloody socks up) having a perineal repair (Fenton's procedure). They send me home with an opening (sorry if TMI) the size of a gnat's, and a pack of dilators to "stretch yourself back to normal." I nearly lost my marbles at this point. Also, this first op was botched, stitches in wrong place, and I had to have another, leaving me better, but not before another agonising infection, and by this time my son was a year old.

I had some really dark days, where I felt my whole life had become medicalised, that I was a pathetic mother who couldn't do anything (lifting was out of the question for such a long time), and that I could never do it again, or ever feel the same.
I just felt broken, and that everyone must be so over my complaining.

I don't say this to be all "woe is me", but just wanted to say to you that there are times with these problems after birth where it all feels so unfair, that the doctors just want you to go away, and on top of it all it's SO personal that you don't know who to turn to, or even feel confident enough to fight for the treatment you need. Which is why you must. I had to fight tooth and nail to get better and now I'm pregnant again. My GP also referred me for some cognitive therapy for the resulting PSTD which surrounded the whole experience and I'm so grateful to her for letting me know I was important, I was a good mother, and getting me to a place where I was looking back on it, rather than unable to stop living it.

Perhaps your GP can refer you for physio, and to the hospital's perineal clinic for a really good investigation, or maybe cortisone injections can help to break down some painful scar tissue?
I also found massaging everywhere that hurts with wheatgerm oil really helps too.

My friend told me a sad story this week. Her mother admitted that she had a prolapsed after my friend was born. She was too embarrassed to ask for any help, her marriage broke down because of it, and that was why they divorced when my friend was 11. She later had a hysterectomy she's sure was the result..

My point is if you are in pain you simply must bang down the doors. Just because you doctors tells you your muscle tone is good and you have healed, you are still IN PAIN and they must help! People go to their GP's all the time for so much less.

The very best of luck to you. Reaaaally sorry to waffle
xx

at these horrific stories.

This is what I have chosen to do my dissertation on.

Godivas, happy to share my experience with you. I found the whole labour experience pretty OK and remember feeling proud of myself after I gave birth. Was looking forward to a cup of tea and cuddling new baby. However, 5 mins after giving birth the scene was like something out of casualty, the room was full of doctors and I was rushed into theatre to be "repaired", god how I hate that word. It took 4 hours to be stitches up and I remember the surgeon and another doctor arguing about whether I needed more stitches. Felt traumatised and violated. Was told had sustained such bad tearing because my baby came out with her arm over her shoulder. Personally I think the midwife screaming at me to push when I didnt need to played a huge part, there was no controlled breating and panting which I've since read plays an important role in preventing tearing. It was only when i got home after spending 4 horrendous day on the postnatal ward (though thats another story) and googled 3rd degree I realised the horrendous seriousness of the problem. No-one had actually told me what a third degree tear was and possible consequences. I remember sobbing in tears to the health visitor when she visited me 2 weeks after giving birth, I was in constant pain, couldnt walk properly and couldnt sleep because of the sheer ongoing pain. She booked me into see a woman gp who disdainfully told me I had a water infection. Several weeks later, feeling suicidal went to the gp again who told me I'd be unlikely ever to feel normal again because of the extent of the damage. Left gps in tears and had my worst christmas ever. I'm sure everyone whos been through this knows how impossibly hard it is to look after a newborn while being in pain and yet people seem to assume you bounce back from the birth quickly (maybe you do if you have a birth without sustaining a tear/stitches).

Eventually paid to see a private gynae who removed some excess scar tissue. Didnt help matters, still in pain, couldnt sit down without discomfort, couldnt walk properly and sex was out of the questions...

Saw a NHS gynae who told me I was healed and said it would take time to get back to normal. By this time I was back at work and couldnt cope with the pain. Seemed to be battling constant infections (had pelvic inflammatory disease twice) and could feel what felt like internal stitches pulling my insides all the time.

To cut a long story short, time is the only thing thats helped. I do feel much better now but do find I have niggly pain sometime and swear there are undissolved stitches inside me. Saw another gp about that who dismissed the possibility though I've heard that this is a known problem- stitches which are meant to dissolve but dont.

I am learning to live with things now but sometimes I do feel down. I think of my healthy body before childbirth and how different it is now. I wonder why me? I feel bitter the first years of my daughters life were ruined because of the pain I felt. Have since read that other women get appointments to perineal clinics automatically if they have a 3rd/4th degree tear and other women are offered injections to ease scar tissue, see a physiotherapist and are invited to attend ultrasound to check the muscles are Ok. (have since paid to have this done but was to scared to go back for the results when the consultant told me he could see significant damage from childbirth but to come back next week for the full results).

Sorry this is so negative, its still raw after all these years and i think its disgusting that some women are left by their hospital to just get on with it and have very poor if any followup care. Its great if you live somewhere where they take 3rd degree tears seriously, but if you dont you have to fight for any semblance of care.

On a positive note things have imporoved for me and have learnt (sorry if tmi)that regular sex helps to keep my muscles working. And I am trying to conceive number 2! Will insist on a c-section though..

sorry this post is so long, got carried away!! Cant really talk about this in real life either.

4.6 years and I'm still in agony after dd's birth and second degree tear
Its being looked at under a GA in November. Am pertified and wish I'd had a bloody C-section after all.

biggreypants, I have that feeling too, especially when I blow my nose! It's horrible! It's impossible to think about anything else when one's most delicate place hurts really... I have it on my mind even when I wake up to go to the toilet in the middle of the night, so I know how you are feeling... I find myself wishing I had a more serious sickness in any other part / organ of my body, just not down there!

lotster and theautomatic, you have no idea how much I appreciate the candid information and the details. It's absolutely invaluable. I have been reading a lot on mumsnet recently (I just wish I discovered this site before I gave birth) and I have learned so much!!

I don't have a problem banging down the doors to see specialists. I like the encouragement though! I live in a Scandinavian country where I have been buggered during birth but my GP here has no problem referring me to specialists as long as I am asking for it, but I kind of lost faith in the doctors here. I sometimes think because it's such a small community no doctor here even wants to admit that anything wrong was done to me (they are bound to know or even be friends / ex-colleagues / uni pals with the wrong-doers)

I am from a southern european country originally where, as long as you are paying for private doctors and hospitals, you get taken seriously and excellent care is provided. I have been going to doctors since the delivery, but I decided that next time I go I want it to be the right type of doctor who specializes in diagnosing and treating vaginal trauma (good luck to me finding one). I also want to have a list with specific topics on it such as Fenton's, scar formation, internal lacerations, steroid injections, perineoplasty etc. (everything I learned on mn and from you guys!) I don't like being poked with a speculum for no good reason, so I feel the necessity to be more informed this time around to get efficient results.

That's why I ask in detail so that I will know what to expect from the specialist.

riven, I am very sorry to hear about your pain but I must admit I am excited for you! I hope they can discover whatever it is that is causing you so much pain still. I know I ask too many questions but did you remain in agony for all these years despite the fact that you seeked medical help before?

minniethemoocher, I forgot to say, I am so not surprised you are going for an elective section this time. That's what I wanted the first time too actually, I was terrified of normal childbirth and the doctor held my hand and said "you will be so happy at the end if you choose to give normal birth", she convinced me, I feel soooo wronged... And definetely not happy. Would you mind telling me if you still have pain down there sometimes, is this what you mean by "never felt the same again"? Especially during sex still, god I am so scared of that!

Godivas, I have had medical care in a southern european country, private and excellent! As to the NHS.....well I am not well off but I am using our savings to have a private c-section, just to avoid NHS "care".

It is hard to describe what it feels like down below, different, I can still feel a ridge of scar tissue on my perineum 5 years after. It is stiff and rigid, not elastic, if that makes sense....I had internal tearing of the vagina too and that feels different as well, a bit like biggreypants describes.

Sex life has got back to normal, no pain but it took a long time. The GP told me that it was nerve damage causing the pain and also fear of pain.

So sorry that you were talked into a "normal" birth and that you have suffered such horrendous consequences as a result

So relieved to be having an elective section, couldn't give birth vaginally again, just TOO scared!!!

I don't expect to feel normal again, ever. But I am very glad to hear that sex life went back to normal, I am very concerned about this. Hope it works out the same way for me too... Thank you very much for the information minnie!

I must say, it's weird how sex actually provides physio sometimes! I find my scar tissue much less sore for a few days afterwards.

After all rubbing scar tissue is what breaks it down. Makes my muscle tone feel weaker though... Hate doing flipping pelvic floors too.

Godivas wrote :iven, I am very sorry to hear about your pain but I must admit I am excited for you! I hope they can discover whatever it is that is causing you so much pain still. I know I ask too many questions but did you remain in agony for all these years despite the fact that you seeked medical help before?

yep. Its taken several years to get to see a decent gynae. To be honest I'm petrified of this Fentons procedure in case things get worse. I've even considered divorcing DH so I wouldn't have to have the op or face sex ever again
The scar on the perineum hurts right at the vaginal entrance - apparently I tore both perineally and vaginally up to the cervix. Some days I don't think its ever going to get better and I wish, oh I wish I'd had a c-section. Not only would my bits be fine, dd wouldn't be brain damaged either

Riven- your point about how you considered divorce to avoid sex struck a chord. I thought the same for ages. I told myself it wasnt fair for dh to be trapped in a sexless marriage but luckily, for me, he said he'd rather be married to me even if it meant no sex, rather than find someone else.

Good luck with your procedure, hope it goes well.

Oh Riven I know your story well have seen many of your posts

you WILL get better, they WILL fix you.
There is only so much bad luck someone can have and this is now your turn for some good luck

Be brave you are a very strong lady and you can get through this.
I will be looking out for your posts telling us all about your rampant sex life

This thread has me in tears.

I think you are all extremely brave, and as someone said you simply MUST demand the help YOU want/need, not just the help they offer/think you need. Such a delicate topic, but please continue fighting.

hehehehe at thought of posting about rampant sex life
Can't I just have a cup of tea?

riven, Very sorry to hear about your daughter. after all you went through you so deserve that operation going well and fabulous.. Hope you tell us about it later.

Are some of you really suggesting that sex is actually good for recovery? I am afraid of trying, given the amount of pain I still have (8,5 months after birth) but one of the gynaes I saw actually did tell me that sex could help the surrounding tissues to heal, like gymnastics (to regain strechiness I guess)! But another gynae looked like he's never heard of anything like that.

Hi godivas. Different experience to you, as i had a c-section with my son's birth, but I felt like I had been hit by a truck for a long time. C-section scar, stress incontinence, a bloody great Bartholin's cyst, hideous mastitis - I really felt like my body was falling apart, to be honest. Didn't have sex for a long time on any regular basis, and to be honest, it took well over a year for me to feel anything less than ill, and closer to two to start feeling normal again. DS is now 3.7 yrs old and I am 32 weeks pregnant with no.2... glutton, punishment etc

Hi Keirao,

I would say as long as you haven't been told you have particularly fragile tissues andnot to, then sometimes it's a good thing.

Having had perineal repair operations where I was told to firmly massage the scar tissue afterwards, and later when more healed agreed with my very lovely GP that sex once a week could take the place of this boring physio rubbing (!)- I know it's worked for me to an extent. And having been sent home from my ops with a pack of dilators, and being told to use them for physio from two days afterwards shudder I can tell you the human version is much easier. (TMI? Sorry!)

The reason scar tissue builds up in wounds is because the body throws collagen at the area to heal it fast, but then by avoiding touching it, we allow too much to build. My GP eplained that we have a natural instinct to rub areas that hurt for very good reason - it brings healing blood to the area, and in the case of scar tissue, stops too much build up. Add to that the fact that this area takes pressure from sitting, and therefore can get less blood, so it's good to increase it.

I later used wheatgerm oil as it's got lots of healing vitamin E, but I started when I was healing with Instillagel which is antiseptic and anaesthetic, great for starting off. Found a link for you to some info: www.clinimed.co.uk/cl/products/UK/instillagel/index.htm

I asked my GP if I could use it for sex, she said well yes, but I don't think your husband would appreciate the numbing!

Please take heart, I cried the first 2-3 times we tried to have sex, more because of the stress and emotion than the pain actually. It tends to release a lot of feelings and you may not be able to continue, but it honestly gets better with practice. And also a bottle of wine and a sense of humour I found...

oh lotster, wine definetely! Thank you very much for the information. I'll check out the oil, I'm using almond oil and a lidokain anaesthetic at the moment but I guess maybe massaging does not fix things once the scar is formed maybe? Or maybe it'd still help break it up like you said.. I don't know if I have scar tissue though. The opening hurts so much (the bits abused by wrong vacuum application) but I can't see a protruding scar, like many women mention. But my doctor said there was a "cyst" formation in the perineum.

I agree with godiva, great advice you all have been giving, precious info! Thanks ladies!

No probs. Wine is a wonder!

Whilst it's easier to stop the build up during healing, you can definately help to break it up afterwards.

My BF could never touch her own bellybutton, let alone her C/S scar (!!), so finally 3 years afterwards I'm getting her to massage her scar with oil and it's helping her.

Use small firm cirular strokes, it's the rubbing as much as the oil that does it. Even if you don't have scarring, it's worth a go to desensitise the area.

Good luck!

Hi ladies
I second what Lotster said scar tissue can definitely be improved once it has formed. Rubbing can help the body to reabsorb the collagen back in into the body it just takes longer the longer you have had the scar.
It took probably two years to stop getting any twinges from my section scar but I would still feel it tugging when in my fav nookie position (sorry TMI!) After my labour the scar was very tender for a couple of weeks but since then no tugging any more
So for perineal repairs stretching and massaging the area as much as possible should help.

Just found this thread (pregnancy insomnia). I am amazed by the courage of so many women on this thread. What appalling stories.

I thought I had it bad with a third degree tear, multiple internal lacerations and nine months of intensive physiotherapy... but can't quite believe how horrific some of these stories are. It makes me really really sad .

Anyway - I came here to say to the OP that it WILL get better. My DD is 3.5 now and I'm 30 weeks pregnant (having a scheduled c/s obviously). I think one of the hardest things is that no one sympathises at all with you after a tear - and the deep trauma of it is difficult to describe unless you've been through it. I remember being so angry that no one had even mentioned the possibility to me antenatally so I didn't really know what had happened to me - and I was left with no postnatal care due to a postcode/catchment area nightmare - and so frightened.

Hmm. I'd better not dwell on this or I'll never get back to sleep...

Just had to add to this. I had emergency cs with ds and then a vbac with dd. I had 15 stitches in my labia and dd has just turned 6 and it still hurts. (As it happens, I only had the stitches because the head midwife delivered my dd and I had post partum haemmorage and the doctors were going to leave me with two flapping pieces until the midwife insisted they at least join the two pieces.) It was probably over a year before it wasn't significantly painful. It has only been in the last year or so that sex has not been excruciatingly painful.... now it's just bearable painful.
If I had it to do all over again, I would have had an elective cs with both. And I recommend to all my girl friends over the age of 30 to have an elective cs. I was 37 and 39 when I had my two and our bodies were just not designed to have kids at that age....more like at 13.

Interesting that you make the link with age, sofiaames. I was 34 when I had my DD so there may be something in it. I had a postpartum haemorrhage too - and when I almost collapsed in the hospital bathroom, blood pouring out of me, and pulled the red emergency cord, a midwife came and told me to "pull yourself together - you've only had a baby"!

Yes, I made an official complaint - much good it did me as the head of midwifery left shortly afterwards to go to a better job . Never got anything in writing.

It's just appalling. Really!

(Must add though that I'm booked with a different hospital this time round - they know my history and are being very very careful to try to make things better this time round. Very compassionate - even made me cry as they told me I was "very brave" to be having another baby at all!)

That is interesting isn't it? I was 32, same age as my mum when I had my first and we both had forceps and big tears...

My sisters who had their first(s) at 18 and 21 didn't tear as far as I know. Maybe our stretchiness and ability to heal does go down later on...

Biggreypants I have to say it... My imagination is running wild as to that position and avoiding it in the future! Guess I'll know it when/if I get there...

With my perineal history and a C/S due in Feb I do dread about having two areas to worry about... Seems unfair to have scars and tenderness in two places, but then I want 2nd child so I suppose it's the lot of us ladies. Just preying the dreaded infections leave me alone this time. I heard calendula is ggod to take to prevent them so will be trying it at the time.

ha ha Lotster its the only one that does it for me IYKWIM
really don't worry about the cs and when its all healed you will be left with a beautiful silver smile

agree too about age you see all the teenage mums with newborns wearing skin tight jeans and a thong string poking out the back! I couldn't wear thongs before I gave birth!

I have no way of guessing what position that is. I had to look up a dictionary even for the word "nookie" (not a native speaker)

I know someone who apparently gave birth at 19 with no complications, and later on at 29 with horrendous outcomes. She was told that her pelvic bone had settled in the last decade(or something like that, somethings get lost in translation), that's why it was more difficult even though it was her second delivery. But I am 29 too, I was hoping that I'd recover sooner because I am young. Never thought of myself as old. Well, I am not 13, that's for sure

I guess we were really made to give birth around 15 and die around 35.

i am 34 and I have to admit I do feel pretty old at the moment! I think once you have children you start aging in dog years ( 1 years feels like 7!)

I would not mind waking up one morning having aged ten years but healthy. Serious health problems help put things in perspective I guess. I saw an advertisement recently which read : "Happiness is good health and bad memory". Hope everything we are going through will be just a bad memory one day.

2 questions

verso if you are still reading this, what was the intensive physiotherapy for? Was it for muscle tone? What is it they do during physio?

theautomated and lotster, you two say sex was somewhat conducive to recovery, does this mean it gets painfree at some point (truth please!)

BTW,

MrsMattie and Verso, thank you both for the messages and good luck to you both with your deliveries this time

godivas I was wired up to a biofeedback machine to do long and short pelvic floor exercises. I had to do this once a week with the machine and 4/5 times a day with a gadget they gave me to use at home. After a few months I had a pelvic floor assessment, which involved being hooked up to lots of different machines, things being put into and taken out of my bottom, having to hold, having to push etc, and finally an ultrasound of the muscle damage and scar.

This enabled them to assess me as having lasting muscle damage to the anal sphincter, which the urogynaecological consultant said meant I had a 40% risk of permanenent faecal incontinence from ANY future vaginal deliveries. (The risk would be higher with ventouse and/or forceps, like DD was.) As time goes on your pelvic floor strength decreases (all your muscle tone decreases with age and this is no exception) so I have to keep doing the pelvic floor exercises for life if I want to prevent continence issues.

I still have problems with 'urgency' and can't hold in wind or diarrhoea at all - but I have enough control restored to be able to hold down a job and mix in civilised society, which is a damn sight better than when DD was born, when I was regularly soiling myself and had no control at all.

Sorry for the marathon post - I bet you wish I'd never started!

On the pain front - sex has never felt the same again for me - but it doesn't actually hurt any more even though it's not exactly pleasurable. I still feel somewhat 'violated' - but am getting over it slowly.

This is interesting reading. I was 30 when I gave birth and had my horrendous 3rd degree tear. My mum had me at 17 and had no problems at all. She then proceeded to have two more children over the course of 5 years with not a single stitch. Infact coming to think of it, all the women in my family had children before they hit 25 and none of them had the problems I've got now. One could reason to have children young I guess, more chance of having an easier birth/better recovery? Maybe I will persuade my own daughter to have her first baby, if she ever wants one, before she hits 30. Alternatively will be recommending a c section.

To answer your question godiva, I have found sex has got better (but then its been 3 years) At first everything felt tight and sorry it its tmi it felt like nothing would fit... Over time the tightness has gone but on penetration the entrance does feel a little sore BUT it is much much better and I hope it continues to improve. Certain positions are a no no mainly ones which involve very deep penetration. Makes me feel sad, I remember having sex pre childbirth and taking it for granted it wouldnt hurt and just, well enjoying it.

Hi girls,

Jst wanted to reassure you all that you will recover in time and yes, the good news, sex can be enjoyable again !!

I have a DD who's 5.5. At her birth I was doing well, but needed a ventouse towards the end so was cut.

After her birth, when they started to deliver the placenta things started to go badly wrong and I suffered a 3rd degree inverted uterus which is basically where your womb turns itself inside out and comes out through your vagina. V.V. rare so hope this doesn't scare any pregnant ladies. To put it in perspective I was the first person in 30 years for it to happen to in my hospital.

Anyway, what that basically meant was I was cut from my bottom right up both sides of my labia and internally stitched back together which took over an hour.
I lost just over 5 pints of blood and DH was told I wasn't going to make it but to everyones suprise I pulled through

But back to the initial story, sex hurt for a while but I can honestly say everything feels fine now. My stitches sometimes get sore even now but not that often really.

I don't normally tell people what I went through as I am not looking for sympathy etc.. but if I can put somebodys mind at rest after a difficult birth then great

mysticsurprise, sorry to be dense but you say your stitches sometimes get sore, did you have permanent non dissolvable stitches, or is it the scar tissue that hurts?

Good to know that a full recovery can be made after a 3rd degree tear!

Godivas, I would say that yes at the time, it is pain free. Although if it's too vigorous then I can feel a bit sore for a day after. Not too bad though.

Honest.

the automatic, sorry, I meant the scars. Usually fine but if I get a water infection or something then the scars will flair up and become quite swollen. That doesn't happen very often though.

I had a 3rd degree tear as well as internal tearing. In the long run it's agreed that I probably had nerve damage. ds is now 2.5 and I am on the mend. I found sex impossible till he was closer to 2, though it is nice now as long as we are careful. I found 3 things that were useful in helping the pain.

First was ultrasound physiotherapy, which was limited but helped. It was a hard slog getting that arranged, but a private consultation with an emapthetic OB got me into the system.

second was pain relief medication especially for nerve problems - gabapentin. originally designed for epilepsy, it's effective in neurological pain too. That was arranged through a pain management centre, but if they suspect you have nerve damage try and see if it may be an option. It was another step that helped bring the pain level down a bit.

final and most awesome has been acupuncture and acutonic therapy! acutonic is needle-free acupuncture using sound. thats directly on the area, with traditional needle therapy for deeper level treatment, though it's applied on arms, legs and feet along other energy chanels.

traditional chinese medicine believes that any scarring interrupts the flow of chi and can result in all kinds of problems. Worse for us is that the perineum has a vital point for yin (as in yin/yang) energy point. Tearing in this spot leads to serious imbalance in chi flow. Worse for me was the position ds was in that also affected my yang point near my sacrum, so I really got the nastiest case scenario. 6 months of treatment so far and worth every cent! Before seeing her I couldn't stand for long without pain, now I can stand for ages and even have sex (carefully) though running and jumping are still out.

It may never be the same again 'down there', but I am just relieved I will eventually be pain free again, and that I can have a normal relationship with my very patient and understanding DH. For a very long time I didn't know if I ever would be pain free and able to have a normal reationship, and that was terrifying. Give it time, you will get there eventually. It is a long and hard road, and I spend many days wondering "why me" but that doesn't change anything. Direct your energy into finding a solution that helps you recover. For me, the why me hasn't gone away yet, but it is fading into a less overwhelming thing as I continue to improve.

Sorry to rant, but I know how hard it is to adjust looking after a baby when you are in need of care yourself. It's even harder when the system just doesn't listen. Hang in there until you find someone who is able to help

Theautomatic, I hope it continues improving for you too... I know so well what you mean by having taken it for granted when we were healthy before childbirth. Good old times; never knew how happy I was...

Mysticsuprise, especially stories like yours make me so angry with the word "natural" or "normal" being attached to childbirth. I don't know why it is expected of any woman to take these risks in the name of childbirth let alone cope with such consequences.. I am glad to hear your bits have, for the most part, healed. Thanks for sharing.

Verso, similarly I sympathise with you so much when you say "violated". I am really sorry that sex isn't pleasurable any more. I get pissed off when doctors blame psychological causes immediately (it kinda makes them redundant, doesn't it?) but I am guessing lack of pleasure in cases like ours may have a lot to do with the trauma we have been through. At the moment, even hugging dh makes me remember the delivery room violations, the chaos, the blood and the screaming, and I start crying. I don't know when I'll have the courage to do the deed actually. At the risk of nauseating you with TMI, I should add that I never took any pleasure from vaginal sex, penetration on its own never meant anything to me, but now I realise that it is an essential part of the whole ritual, and not being able to do it now makes me feel upset and handicapped anyway. Hope after the second kid, you become a new woman and discover a thousand new ways of pleasure!

As for physiotherapy I was asking to see if there was anything I could do by myself but I see there were a lot of machines and methods involved. As there should be. Where I live, they haven't even heard of obstetric physiotherapy. There is one Vulva Clinic in the country which has a two-year waiting list +plus+ it belongs to the hospital where they destroyed me in the first place. I don't have incontinence probs at the moment, though I am not sure if that says anything for even the near future.

Vizbizz, i am so sorry to hear that you had to spend so many years in pain, I know what even a few months of this does to one mentally. I'll see if I can get any acupuncture or acutonic therapy here but I doubt it. I'll check gabapentin's active ingredient to see if I can get hold of an equivalent drug but in the rich dump where I live any medicine or treatment of any real effect is either banned or rationed beyond reach. Thank you very much. Hope everything keeps improving for you.

Lotster, looking forward to "vigorous"

I'm so that the aftercare for some people is so bad-and this is meant to be a progressive country!

I had a different experience to many of you on here (massive baby) which resulted in emergency c-section which didn't heal properly. In fact, I was sore for 6 months + until I started using a high quality aloe vera gelly on the wound- not only did the raw parts finally heal but it has really reduced the scar tissue aswell. I couldn't even bear waistbands of trousers of knickers on the area! I had some really nasty lumps of scar tissue that were really painful but the aloe has got rid of these and its much flatter and healed looking as a result.

Am due to go in for a 2nd c-section in 2 weeks time and will be using it from the start this time as well as drinking the gel to heal from the inside!

Hope this helps anyone- I have a midwife friend and she recommends it to her patients use it on childbirth wounds too.

I starting reading this thread and it made me weepy eyed and so in awe of the strength of people here to go through all of that.

I'm 35 and about to have my first baby. My consultant says I should opt for an elective c-section. The idea of major surgery has SCARED me so much, I was thinking about trying natural delivery but having read this thread I've learnt that natural delivery can be so life changing and isnt problem free either.

He is recommending c-section as I have a weak pelvic floor (I've never been able to jog/sneeze/go to areobics without a sanitary pad as I leak a little urine doing these things).

What do you ladies think? So many people seem to frown on having an elective c-section...

Having an elective section because you think that it will be a walk in the park does tend to be a bit frowned upon on MN. But having an elective section because you have been advised that it's the best thing for your future continence is completely different! Let people frown if they want, it is your body and your decision.

A lot of the complications and risks involved in sections tend to be emergency sections, rather than elective sections, by the way. Not that an elective section is easy - you will still be giving birth - but if you have been worried about general C section statistics then an elective section is safer than either an emergency section or an instrumental vaginal delivery.

Gilliana1, mrstittlemouse is right about those statistics. The chaos of an emergency c-section is what increases the likelihood of complications commonly associated with caesereans. I wish I were you now, reading threads like this BEFORE I gave birth so that I'd have a chance to make a more informed choice.

Oh and it's almost 9 months since I had ds and I spent today feeling like I was kicked really hard in the perineum and as if my insides were scraped off with a spatula. Now compare THAT to possible c-section complications.

If I could go back in time I'd opt for a c-section, every time. Yes of course it is major surgery but so is repairing a 3rd/4th degree tear. I spent well over 3 hrs on an operating tear while they repaired my bum, to me a c-section would be a walk in the park! Its less embarrassing talking to people/doctors about problems with your c section wound as well. At least if you have an infection or a problem with stitches/scar tissue from a c section you can face going to the doctor, it took me months to get up the courage to talk to my husband about all the problems I've had with my bum, let alone a gp! If I ever have any more I will have a c section, never risking such severe tearing again.

sorry, that should be operating table!

Gilliana1 as the others have said you have a very sound reason for it, and stuff those that think otherwise. Don't go down the path we have been on. I dare say most of us wish we could have had a CS.

Does anyone else have problems with yeast infections following their tear? Sorry if this is TMI, but I am wondering if it's something that happens once everything gets messed up? I am fine until I have sex - then I get candida EVERY time. It's clear that I am not catching it from my DH, it seems to be that because everything is already irritated, sex throws the balance out just enough to make it happen. Though I recently found acigel, and if I use that for a couple of days after it seems to prevent it.

Its funny that they suggest that it's psychosomatic. In the earlier attempts I thought sex would hurt, but it would be ok after. Boy! was I wrong. I found that sex was kinda ouch but a lot more bearable that I expected and I was surprised, but the day or two after were sheer hell. Maybe it's because of the nerve damage component? It seemed like maybe the activity flared it up again. I doubt I will ever really know.

Oh God, I just read another thread about a graze from childbirth and all I can think is "I'll swap places with you!" She said it stings when she wees. I felt like I was being sliced open with razor blazes every time I went for number 2's for several months after ds arrived. Some people really don't realise how lucky they are! I don't mean to sound bitchy, but that complaint has me in tears.

vizbizz, yes I read that thread too and the replies about grazes normally healing after 2 or 3 weeks, if only tears healed so well and so quickly! I cant imagine recovering so quickly, it was still a year til I could walk properly. Had a weep in secret in the bathroom this evening, felt so sore in the ahem bottom area. I have to admit to feeling annoyed with women who go on about getting their figure back after birth, and how they despair about their extra couple of pounds. I have no sympathy at all.

oh and to answer your question about infections, I went through a stage of getting thrush after having sex, this eventually passed. Can relate to the pain after sex, I also used to suffer for a couple of days afterwards especially if it was "vigorous". Things have got better now though, though not like they were before.

I don't know if I have yeast infections, but I get easily inflamed down there since birth-One gynae I saw said the bacterial flora of the vagina becomes more susceptible to change when the area has already been through hell. Could it be not because of sex but a gliding cream or gel that you are using during sex which is maybe upsetting your Ph value and thus making your bits more vulnerable and open for infections?

Seems like the thrush thing is not unusual. Damn it is nasty.

keirao, I don't use any creams etc, haven't felt a need for them, so that can't be it.

theautomatic, have you tried xylocaine/lignocaine ointment as a topical relief? It doesn't penetrate deeper layers, but can help a bit when things get sore at the surface level. Helped me a lot with hypersensitivity in the early stages - though i didn't get it till ds was about 6 months old - and then after a lot of nagging.

hell, I am a smaller size (now a size 8 and trying to put some weight back on - don't stone me!) than I was before Ds, but I'd happily have extra kilos if it meant I was pain-free!

vizbizz, thanks will investigate the ointments, willing to give anything ago. It is odd as the pain is around the bottom area but not from where I had stitches. Have seen numerous doctors who say this particular pain and discomfort is not related to the tear, personally I dont believe them. Sigh. I remember before childbirth never giving my arse a second thought, now sometimes its all I think of. Goes to pour another glass of wine...

I know what you mean! It's kind of depressing thinking about your butt all day long, isn't it?

I have suspected infections many times over the summer. I had these itching attacks several times which eased when I put yeast creams on. But I never get tested for a yeast infection really so I don*t know for sure. One attack was after I left on wet bikinis (I used to always do that before birth), one was after I used an antihistamine, one was after some sleeping pill. I never noticed anythinglike this before birth though.

And about sympathy for others suffering from minor discomforts, I have very little of that now but I don't like it. This whole childbirth experience hardened me a lot, I have become a stiff, intolerant person towards others' complaints about anything. I even want to go back and smack my old self for worrying about nausea, stretch marks or a possible vertical c-section scar.

Gilliana1, I think this thread speaks for itself. I wouldn't want to pass a pea vaginally after reading this thread but whatever you do, research a lot first, weigh your pros and cons for all types of birth, like others have said. And good luck.

I use lidokain for bum / sphincter / perineum pains. I used to object to this for it treats the symptoms not the cause, but I stopped fighting against it. The anaesthetic makes me forget at least for an hour and that's good by me.

On that note, I actually want to ask vizbizz and mrstittlemouse if they had "scar" issues and why they were not considered to be good candidates for a Fenton's to ease the pain.

Vizbizz,in your situation is it finally decided that yours was a nerve damage (I read some were getting the nerve removed? Is this a possibility for you?)

And mrstittlemouse, I am familiar with your story, what is it that makes you hurt still? Anything Fenton's could have solved?

I am curious about Fenton's because when I support my perineum with my hand or put lidokain only there I feel good for a period of time. I wonder if my issues can be scar-related.

I am also curious as to why some people like riven or SofiaAmes haven't been offered Fenton's a long time ago..

I find that even wearing pyjamas in bed rubs on my scar and irritates it leaving the skin sore and itchy, there are some knickers I can no longer wear either. They certainly dont tell you this in pregnancy books or at antenatal classes. Somehow I think the birth rate would be a lot lower if they did or the c-section rate even higher. This also upsets me. I hear regularly on the news and in the papers about how there we have such a high c-section rate. If its so high and surgeons dont mind performing c-sections why did I labour for 3 days to give birth naturally to a large baby who was stuck in the birth canal and ripped me to shreds! Sorry to sound bitter but I go over and over in my head how things would probably be so much better for my if I'd just been given a c-section of if I'd been clued up on childbirth before I went into hopsital to give birth. I think my whole life would be different in a very good way.

Hello ladies, another loooong post from me coming up (!).

On c-sections, they cost more, simple as that I reckon. They take up a theatre, and loads of staff.

My midwife at my last appt. said that this is the only reason she can think of that one doc on my consultant's team starting a bizarre campaign to terryify me about c/s and try a 2nd vaginal birth with comments like "you must know that infections from C/S can be life threatening", and in response to be sayin I have no flippin perineal stretch left after 2 x Fenton's, "Well as long as the upper parts of the vagina are ok, I'm not too bothered about external scarring..." )

I'm bloody bothered that I would definitely need a special repair, most likely leaving me with no future sex life as it's taken so long to get me functioning now, without future scar tissue and subsequent removal

My very gentle husband was livid and I was
sobbing, thankfully a 2nd doctor came in and told the first I clearly needed a C/S with what I'd been through and that was that.
As midwife said, some have such a desperate mission to drive down the c/s rates and save on budget, that when they're trying to stop the women who just don't fancy the challenge of a normal birth they're sometimes blind to the ones who really need it.

As for Fenton's Godivas, there are upsides and downsides. Not many people know about it which shocks me, my GP had to badger the hospital to stop fobbing me off with cortisone injections and operate. I'll detail it here as it might be useful for others seaching for info on MN. I'll be very honest I warn you!

On the downside, you have to be put under G/A by a load of people about to operate on your most personal area which is daunting.
You can't lift anything heavier than a kettle of water for 8 weeks after to avoid scarring.
You might be black and blue down there which is upsetting too, but not so much if you're warned!
You will probably have to use dilators ( www.vaginaldilator.co.uk/where-to-buy-vaginal-dilators.html ) which the hosp should give you free, in your V every day starting from three days. This shocked the hell out of me. But it's to maintain the opening and stop stitches doing anything they shouldn't, it does hurt as first but I took my anti-inflammatories a litle while beforehand.
There is a long period of self-massage physio and pelvic floors to do for a few months after.
One friend asked if I was pleased with my new "designer vagina" without realising what a stupid, hurtful, thing that belittled my whole experience it was to say, but then, if you have any ongoing personal problems like this you're probably used to putting on a brave face!

On the positive side, I must say that with that whole nightmare behind me, having had it twice as the first one slightly botched... I am pretty much pain free except around the time of my period, when I get some soreness.
Plus things have flipped on the sex side of things, whereas before it was painful and continued to be painful for at least a couple of days so I didn't do it for months, now I actually find relief from a "workout"! For e.g. (TMI coming up as usual!) I haven't had sex for weeks because of morning sickness and sheer tiredness, but now that's lifted, and we attempted it this week, my scar which had been feeling a bit hard and sore now feels fine again.

It's worth it, but you have to fight for it and getting a GP on side is the best way to do it. I went on my surgery's website and specifically chose the GP who specialised in gynae. And interestingly, phsychiatry - I was depressed about my bits so she was perfect!

I feel I've been to hell and back, but can't get it out of my head that so many women suffer in silence. I am someone who complains, asks lots of questions, and had good support from my GP, cognitive therapy counsellor and husband. But what about the people too upset, or down, or unsupported, or just plain in the dark about these things suffer away, too shy to come on places like MN and get answers??!!

I would really like to to set up a website where women can get the answers and advice they need about some of these birth traumas. There seem to be some out there, but generally they just allow people to vent their stories, then tell them to see the doctor.

I struggled to find anything about Fenton's, except medical journals written for doctors. I'd like to see something with practical advice like "this is how to keep your stitches clean and avoid infection after birth", "Ask your GP for x or take these alternative remedies for thrush/mastitis, and here's a picture of what they look like", "Here are operations/creams/excercises or physio/ you can do for perineal trauma", "this is the difference between being a bit post-natal and being really depressed or having PTSD", plus c-section advice and so much more. Because it's extremely hit and miss what one MW or HV will tell you and another won't bother.

Maybe I should,but it would need to be backed up by qualified bods I'm sure. Hmm...

Anyway sorry to waffle again. x

Lotster, that's amazingly useful information. As you say, there's really not enough info about Fenton's online.

I totally agree with you. We are brainwashed as to how wonderful and healthy a vaginal delivery is only because c-sections are more expensive. Where I come from educated and / or urban women with private insurance don't even hesitate a second before they decide to have an elective section, noone looks down upon them, and doctors don't go beyond saying "have you also considered normal birth", that's it! It is totally accepted that this is a perk of modern life. Just like we don't wash dishes in our hand any more but use dishwashers instead! That system is quite unfair too though since women who can't afford to pay for a c-section or for private insurance can't have elective c-sections. For almost 20 years now, not a single woman in my family has given normal birth. Happy, lucky women. Where I live though (I guess this goes for the UK mostly as well) health costs are covered by the state hence talking about an elective section is almost a taboo.

About Fenton's, having to stick in a dilator shortly after the procedure sounds awful. That also means I have to look at the area to face the blackness and the blueness ( I am so happy that I didn't look down after birth until the area was normalized).

In case I can't find you here later before I decide to get a Fenton's, would you mind telling me what kind of pain (and where) did you have it? I have this pressure on my perineum, but I can't see a big scar at the entrance of my vagina (where I think it hurts). There's a lump in my perineum though. Is that what is removed? And as I said before when I put anaesthetic on the perineum, the pain and discomfort eases a bit. Did you have a big scar that was visible for instance?

Hi again.

As look down, I tore from the V entrance down and right through the perineum. Where I was stitched, the bottom of the right labia which had torn got sewn in with the tear repair, leaving me lop sided too. At the time, I had stitching inside the V, down to just above the bottom.

I had an infecton after birth which burst a couple of stitches, leaving me convinced there was a hole just inside the bottom of my V entrance going under my perineum. The hospital denied the stitches had burst (which my HV and GP said was bull*t), so I feel that's when I developed a lot of scarring under the perineum.

So afterwards, I had a ridge of scar tissue from the entrance which was easier to feel and knobbly, and down the perineum, which was more lumpy under the skin and also a lump a couple of inches up inside the V from a haematoma that scarred.

The whole area was sore and felt like it was pulling or a bit burning at times from what I remember. When I was examined I would leap off the couch.

I had two lots of cortisone injections in the months before the surgery. Which you never know, might be enough for you?
They are painful, as you would expect from a needle in your bits, and contains anasthethic that kicks in half an hour later, to see you through the next twelve hours.
Admittedly they did help to dissolve some of the scarring and reduced pain in some areas, and for some people is enough, but it wasn't enough in my case which is why my doctor pushed the hospital to operate.

They use them again during the Fenton's procedure whilst you're under. During the op, they cut your perineum, removed scar tissue - which apparently they said is actually divided more that taken away) and sew you up again. These stitches don't need to be removed, they dissolved or fall out later.

The pain after the op is not great but you are prepared, unlike birth. Morphine in the hospital is great(!), and when you go home you have diclophenac or similar anti-inflammotary and paracetamol. I also had IV antibiotics before I went home to prevent infection.

Ice packs were good, they gave me some rubber hospital gloves to part fill with water and then I wrapped them in a layer of kitchen towel. You use them for about 20 mins, no longer as you mustn't take blood away from the area to long and impair the healing. Arnica for bruising and calendula to avoid infection are good too.

I have to have an elective C/S, but another Mumsnetter on here had a Fenton's after her first and then went on to have two big babies vaginally so everyone is different!

Good luck with whatever you do. I'll try and send you my email for guture questions/support if I can work out how!

If men gave birth, would they risk the amount of damage to their genitals that women suffer?

No chance!!! Most gynaes and obs are male and they have NO IDEA of the pain and embarrassment that women suffer after damaged caused during childbirth.

Sorry for the rant, just had to get it off my chest!

I had the exact same thought!! I think if it were men giving birth, normal birth would have been made illegal by now.

Lotster, that doctor who thought you should try vaginal birth a second time (male or female) should be shot in the crutch.

She actually, for shame... I agree

Just heard back from hospital that I have an appointment to see dermatologist about problems I've been having with scar tissue from all the stitches I had after giving birth. I really hope they can help. It has taken months of battling with my gp to get this far, I have tried cream after cream to try and relieve the symptoms but nothing works. Has anyone else seen a dermatologist about scar tissue?

Sorry theautomatic, no experience with scar tissue treatment (yet). Good luck, hope it's a good dermatologist.

I was going to ask you all if any of you experienced breaks in your painful periods right after birth. Since the 12th week after birth, I have been having some almost totally symptom-free periods (ranging from 15 days to 2 months!) during which it almost felt like I never gave birth (didn't try sex though-- was too scared and husband was away or sick). But the pain always came back. For instance, I have been feeling as if my insides have been ripped apart for a month now, after having spent July and most of August without pain.

My pain goes away occasionally too but not totally.
Lotster, thanks again for everyhting you have written, my email address is godivas1978@gmail.com Maybe I'll post a Fenton's enquiry on MN later ( I read old posts though)
Good luck, theautomatic. Keep us informed. Hope they can solve your scar issues. Hope we all get better very soon. I don't know if there are women who suffer for decades even if they seek medical help.
I always wanted big, sexy breasts. Then my bottom exploded, how's that for sexy?!

theautomatic Ask her about a cortisone injection they are sore but they dissolve some scar tissue and it could be all you need along with some regular massage? Good luck.

Keirao I wonder if you experience changes in pain as your hormones fluctuate? Sounds like you really need more GP support/ideas on this. Have you heard of Agnus Castus? It's a remedies to even out your hormones,
(see www.thegoodwebguide.co.uk/index.php?art_id=253 )
Just a shot in the dark but it doesn't harm to do a course and maybe would help? I could be talking twaddle so if you wanted to ask a professional about alternative paths you could call www.theorganicpharmacy.com in London. They deliver remedies and give really good advice over the phone. They cleared up my breast thrush really quickly when the docs had given up!

Godivas I've sent you my email address for future use. Exploding bottoms aside, those big beautiful breast become cocker spaniel's ears I can tell you...!

Thanks Lotster will definitely ask about the injection. To be honest feeling sick with worry about the appointment. I could count on one hand the number of times I visited the doctor pre childbirth, but in the last few years I always seem to be going to one appointment or another in the quest to get a resemblance of health back to my bits! Really dont want to have to expose my bum again sigh, and worry that most dermatologists in their everyday work dont have to deal with many scar tissue around the bum type patients. Its a bloke as well which doesnt help. Oh well will have to be strong and get on with it, it seems most of us on here have had to battle on looking after babies while suffering. Hears hoping t