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Aibu to think that sueing the church over gay marriage is not acceptable?

(565 Posts)
Orlux Sat 03-Aug-13 08:59:28

Here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2383686/Millionaire-gay-fathers-sue-Church-England-allowing-married-church.html

I supported the right of gay couples to have same rights as heterosexual ones, but I feel this is going to far. Plus my religious friends (I'm agnostic) are now having a go at my naivety. blush

Catsize Wed 07-Aug-13 20:51:55

Should clarify - legally recognised being in UK civil law, rather than Sharia.

skylerwhite Wed 07-Aug-13 20:54:30

They are legally recognised if the person conducting them has obtained authorisation, as I pointed out in my post.

Crumbledwalnuts Wed 07-Aug-13 20:55:20

Catsize: some mosques you can get married and there's no need for a civil ceremony, certainly.

Crumbledwalnuts Wed 07-Aug-13 20:56:06

Skyler: was my last but one post a correct representation of your view?

Crumbledwalnuts Wed 07-Aug-13 21:02:05

The reason I'm trying to clarify is not to prove you are wrong about gay marriage, or to score a random point. I'm trying to demonstrate how extremely complex this is. It's not just a case of Equal Rights Or You're A Homophobe, as some people are making out.

Somewhere along the line there has to be a compromise between rights and religious freedom, and everyone involved will have to end up accepting positions like yours with the inconsistency they contain.

That's why this sledgehammer court case is wrong, insensitive, crass, selfish, arrogant and will ultimately engender more hostility than would ever be necessary to bring about this change.

Catsize Wed 07-Aug-13 22:25:13

I agree with the obtaining authorisation point. I think that the licence is a civil marriage one though, rather than a generic licence that we recognise by virtue of the religion concerned. Important to recognise the special place of the Cof E etc. for this debate I think. As said above, Established Church, law-making function etc. But just think it is a shame that things aren't being allowed to bed in a bit, or even get started, before they are challenged. Equally,the slightly rebellious bit of me likes it, but I think it will backfire big time. It will potentially create a legal precedent that might not have been created a little while down the line. And if the Church had been allowed to get used to the idea, it might go down the route of seeking to amend the legislation to allow same-sex marriage in about the year 2345.

Dervel Sun 11-Aug-13 08:54:11

@skylarwhite. Comparing the issue of slavery to the issue of homosexuality is an informal fallacy. Yes I concede that the mistreatment of black people was tenuously justified through scripture. The curse of Ham (Genisis 9:20-7), it was later interpreted that Ham was black (not really solidly from a scriptural standpoint), thus justifying the curse of being made "servant of servants" being applied to a whole race.

Furthermore the manner of slavery as practiced in the American colonies is expressly forbidden in the bible (Exodus 21:16) kidnapping and selling people into slavery is a crime punishable by death. In addition to other passages relating to how slaves should be treaded which was most certainly not adhered to in the Americas.

Homosexuality however does not enjoy much in the way of pro-homosexual passages. The best I have been able to come up with is by going back to the original Greek (Romans 1:18-27). This is ironically one of the go-to passages for anti-homosexual arguments. In verse 26 the words φυσικὴν χρῆσιν are translated to mean natural function, however a more accurate in my view definition of φυσικὴν means born nature or born into. In other words the nature one is created with. Therefore if one is born homosexual it would be against God to try to be anything else.

In that passage Paul was censuring Christian converts who had lapsed back into Pagan practises that involved sexual rites with people engaging in sexual activity which was according to Paul against their nature (which if they were heterosexual it would have been). However even if that IS the correct interpretation it still does not provide us with biblical references in support of Gay marriage, which is where drawing parallels to the slavery/racism in America falls down.

There are a great many non-homophobic Christians that are wrestling with precisely this issue, when what ultimately needs to happen is a reexamination of what a marriage precisely is in the eyes of God, and eventually a redefinition of what it means to us as necessary. These are weighty issues for all concerned that require sound scholarship, compassion and humility. NOT just knee-jerk responses by either side, or meddling from the courts.

I know it might make it easy to draw a black and white line in your head. Clump all the people who don't agree with you as in the wrong, intolerant homophobes (if your are pro-church gay weddings), or as in the wrong, and wanting to destroy the Christian definition of marriage and family (if you are anti), but really those are just gross oversimplifications of the issues at stake, and both extremes go against the beating heart of love, faith & hope that should be at the centre of any Christian Church.

Dervel Sun 11-Aug-13 08:57:11

Forgive those random numerical character codes, apparently mumsnet doesn't like Ancient Greek characters. I was talking about phusikan krasis, with phusikan being the word relation to the nature one is "born into".

skylerwhite Sun 11-Aug-13 10:08:43

This book might interest you: Noah's Curse: The Biblical Justification of Slavery in America.

I believe that by the mid19th c, pro-slavery arguments
centred round the fact that the slave trade had effectively ceased, and people were born into slavery in America, therefore the Exodus prohibition did not apply.

x2boys Sun 11-Aug-13 13:38:37

actualy not all religious ceremonies are recognised if you wish to b e married in a catholic church you have to have a registrar there to make it legal same in islam l beleive

Catsize Tue 13-Aug-13 10:06:06

That is my understanding too x2boys.

QueenofallIsee Tue 13-Aug-13 10:30:25

I believe that the Bible was written by men not by God and that Jesus would be OK with homosexuality myself.

I think that suing the Church was inevitable but I am still very sorry to see it. Marriage is defined in the Christian faith in terms of procreation, hence why the Church has resisted same sex marriage, I may not see it that way but some Christian leaders (good men and women who help their community and behave righteously) believe strongly that they must follow doctrine as it is laid out and thus are very distressed that the law might be used to force them to pick and choose which bits apply.

There is an argument in there that wonders if the Church had never evolved before, we might all still be worshipping gold idols and thus religion SHOULD keep pace with society but I am not a religious leader am I!

You are not BU, I don't think that a law suit is the right answer eitehr

skylerwhite Tue 13-Aug-13 10:36:23

You don't have to have a registrar if the minister (of any religion apart from CofE) obtains authorisation. See the How to Marry section of this link.

Catsize Tue 13-Aug-13 14:22:11

Also true skyler.

Saffyz Tue 13-Aug-13 16:47:01

Gay people can and do have children, through sperm donation, surrogacy or adoption. If an aspect of marriage is to support "procreation" and family life, then surely it would be just as much benefit to those children in families where the parents are gay? Why deny them this?

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