AIBU to think that when all things are considered, teachers are on the equivalent of NMW?

(192 Posts)
Glossynotflossy Mon 03-Dec-12 07:24:45

The extra time spent at home planning, making reources, time spent buying resources (out of your own pocket) basically means that teachers, in reality, are on the equivalent or just above NMW for all the work outside of the actual classroom?

Arisbottle Tue 04-Dec-12 21:59:55

Ithaka where have I tried to claim that I work any harder than anyone else !

I expressly said that when it is averaged out I do not work mad hours .

Yes most evenings I do take work home as do many other people .

I would question how many other people are routinely working from 7am until 6pm in their place of work and then another few hours in the evening . I really hope they aren't . I don't mind doing so as I never have to work like that for more than seven weeks .

laptopdancer Tue 04-Dec-12 09:49:44

True, I do agree. You can, however, also choose to be healthy and take precautions when working outdoors. This includes adequate clothing, safety regs etc. I know my son doesn't go up on the scaffold in certain weather and he is equipped with safety gear and theraml clothing. It's all about keeping your own working environment safe. Accidents can happen in any workplace. We had one lecturer off for a few months last winter after he smashed his head on the pavement after slipping on ice on the way to a lecture.

cory Tue 04-Dec-12 09:45:05

Well laptop, quite frankly, you can work in academe and choose not to drink alcohol or eat unhealthy food. A roofer can't choose the weather, a trawlerman can't choose whether there's going to be a sudden storm when he's out at sea. I seriously don't believe stress resulting in drinking and a bad diet is exclusive to academics: what about journalists/bankers etc? Still not the same as falling off a roof.

laptopdancer Tue 04-Dec-12 09:19:50

cory I found that HE was the unhealthiest profession. Many of my colleagues were heavy drinkers and had poor diets. Late nights+alcohol+odd emails at midnight+coffee galore and no meal breaks+stress = really unhealthy staff.

cory Tue 04-Dec-12 09:14:39

Nobody started a thread to dispute that teachers work hard. The reason people have been pitching into the OP is that in comparing teachers to workers on the NMW she seemed to forget that other jobs also have stresses and inconveniences- not least the low paid ones.

Let's put it this way: most of the middle aged teachers I know look their age. The manual workers I know often look about 10 years older than they actually are. The body takes a lot of punishment.

The fulltime academics I know typically work the kind of hours Arisbottle describes (and also work during the holidays). But they are generally fit and healthy at retirement and can look forward to years of enjoyment of their pensions.

ithaka Tue 04-Dec-12 09:11:52

So most days you finished at 5.30pm? Doesn't sound like long hours for a full time job with 13 weeks holiday a year to me....

I am sure you will respond that you took work home - well, shock horror. Do you seriously think teachers are the only professionals to do that?!

Arisbottle Mon 03-Dec-12 23:02:39

I certainly am not imcompetent or a martyr. I just have a big work load. I teach a subject that produces lots of essays, I have a pastoral role which can be unpredictable and also require me to meet with other professionals and parents. There is also an expectation that I attend the many concerts, events , plays and sporting events. I am also expected to run revision or booster sessions for key stage four and five.

I am currently recovering from sadly yet another miscarriage so am being understandably slack, but a few weeks ago this is what I was up to roughly.

Monday to Thursday - doing mock university interviews between 7:30 and 8:15am
Monday 4- 5:30 pm running a staff training session
Tuesday 3:30 - 4:30 running an after school homework club 4:40 - 5:30 meeting with a parent
Wednesday 4 - 5:30 A level booster class
Thursday 4- 5:30 pm department meeting
Friday - stayed in school until 6pm to write reports . From 6pm until 7pm I helped set up for a school event. 7-10 pm school event

Apart from the Friday I then had a few hours of marking and planning to do.

So my long hours are just part of working in an outstanding school with a position of responsibility .

Arisbottle Mon 03-Dec-12 22:39:28

I have worked out that I work about 75 hours a week in term time and little bits here and there in the holidays - as a middle manager I am on about £15 an hour. Hardly minimum wage. I hope my figures are right or I will look an utter tit.

Even if an NQT was to earn half as much as me ( I think they earn more than that) and worked the same hours as me ( they shouldn't be) they would still be on £7.50 an hour , so above NMW and contributing to a healthy pension pot and having an excellent chance of career progression .

I think there is a wide issue about working hours and expectations that goes beyond teaching.

Aboutlastnight Mon 03-Dec-12 22:25:05

"Idiots rushing onto the thread to say teachers only work 5 minutes a day, get 38 weeks of holiday a year and if they don't they must be shit."

No one posted that. Most people understand teaching's a tough profession -but merely pointed out that other professions are tough too. And the holidays are a perk - everyone I know who is a teacher regards them as a (much needed) perk.

But surely you see that comparing teaching to a minimum wage job because the op is making resources in her spare time is actually pretty offensive. When so many families are struggling financially. And that from the perspective of someone doing A minimum wage job or self employed and struggling to pay employees wages each month etc may get a little fed up.

BeanieStats Mon 03-Dec-12 22:17:00

Well no, he's not a primary teacher. Mind you I don't personally see how the workload could be that much more than a senior teacher at an inner city comprehensive school but I'm sure you can tell me.

I would ask him to post something but he's gone to the pub (with some of his colleagues no less). Maybe tomorrow.

Mind you, the whole 'teachers work seventy hours a week' thing does seem to annoy him. The 'martyrs or incompetent' line is something he often says after having his ear bent by his colleagues. Admittedly he is exceptional (even if I do say so myself) but from what I can see its just good organisation. While the "you just reuse everything from one year to the next" is a bit simplistic it does look like there's more than a grain of truth to it.

Maybe you just need to get organised feenie? wink

Feenie Mon 03-Dec-12 21:58:32

There is a difference between not accepting it and posting out and out lies to combat it though, isn't there?

I don't agree with the OP either, FWIW, or many other threads tonight, but would prefer to argue using facts every time.

stopthatmavis Mon 03-Dec-12 21:49:01

I use to earn £30,000 10 years ago sitting in front of a laptop. Even on my honeymoon I was answering work related emails and during sickness would still be on the laptop working.

How does my life compare now? There is no comparison because it was a different world and a very different life to the one I now have.

If you've been a cleaner cats then you are on too aware of the massive dent this makes to your self-esteem, know how hard it is to make ends meet and the sleepless nights you have worrying about how you're going to pay the bills, find the money for clothes for your dc, know that there's no extra to pay for clubs or opportunities for the dc that their peers take for granted.

Some of us don't receive maintenance, don't have any family to call upon for help and do what we have to at the time to make ends meet. Are you aware that there's very little financial help to re-train? and that short of being unemployed you are not entitled to assistance at all?

This is the reality! and I live with that and accept it but, again, will not accept teachers whinging how hard life is and how the rest of us in the real world just don't understand!

kim147 Mon 03-Dec-12 21:39:08

Teaching is not comparable to working on the NMW. The jobs and conditions are not comparable.

It's a strange job though. It's very intense during the day. 4 or 5 lessons where you have to be fully prepared for, good or outstanding all the way through, no stopping for time out during a lesson and then a lot of work in the evening and the weekend. Very intense.

Then you wind down at holidays before the next 6 - 7 weeks builds up. Someone said it was a bit like doing an outstanding actor every day for a 6 week run.

But it is an insult to compare it to the NMW.

Feenie Mon 03-Dec-12 21:34:16

How can you argue with people that believe working as a teacher is the same as working in a manual job for NMW..? Seriously!

I agree that is frustrating - however, the way not to deal with it is to post totally fictitious bollocks and expect not to get called on it.

Catsnotrats Mon 03-Dec-12 21:30:03

Actually Mavis I have done that job, and you're right - it's shit. It's what motivated me to get a degree and a professional job, and I have every sympathy with those who don't have the opportunities I did to get out.

I still agree with feenie that you are wrong.

I have friends who are working 70 hours a week in the city (for quadruple my pay but that's beside the point). Believe me they are very good at their job, it's just the ridiculous demands of their company. The same is true to a lesser extent for teachers.

stopthatmavis Mon 03-Dec-12 21:29:31

How can you argue with people that believe working as a teacher is the same as working in a manual job for NMW..? Seriously!

It's pointless and deeply insulting from where I'm sitting and I waste my breath.

Feenie Mon 03-Dec-12 21:25:47

Yes, but the thread evolved into the crap you and Beanie posted:

Have to agree beanie with this: "Any teacher doing more than an average of 45 hours per week is either a martyr or incompetent".

So your point is that either that's true, or I should be a cleaner? confused

Strange, strange logic.

stopthatmavis Mon 03-Dec-12 21:21:30

That was not the point of this thread though was it Feenie?

Why don't you try domestic cleaning at 40 hours a week for minimum wage. Cleaning shitty toilets, disposing of dirty sanitary wear, are a regular as is crippling joint pain through wear and tear and exhaustion. OH, and throw in self-employed with no paid holiday or sickness but still preferable to living a life on benefits!

But my life and my choices no matter how limited they might have been due to circumstances but then maybe I should start a thread on how tough and unfair this society is between those who have and those who don't..?

chicaguapa Mon 03-Dec-12 21:13:44

Of course there's nothing to stop the self-employed with no pension or paid holiday becoming teachers and also benefitting from the job security and guaranteed pay rises. There's a shortage of good teachers apparently and it's a great job, long holidays and if you're good enough at it, you don't need to spend much time planning and marking. What's not to like? grin

Feenie Mon 03-Dec-12 21:11:21

Yes, it's all too predictable.

Idiots rushing onto the thread to say teachers only work 5 minutes a day, get 38 weeks of holiday a year and if they don't they must be shit.

Teachers correct the misconceptions.

Same idiots shout at us to stop moaning.

hmm hmm

Feenie Mon 03-Dec-12 21:08:44

I'm not saying it's tough.

I'm saying you're wrong.

Difference.

kim147 Mon 03-Dec-12 21:07:28

4 fights today.
3 children restrained.
Chairs thrown.

And some of these were children running into my class with their issues.

In a primary school.

Catsnotrats Mon 03-Dec-12 21:04:18

One teacher is having IVF and gets paid time off for this,, that's lovely but I think some public sector workers haven't a clue how this just wouldn't happen in the private sector...

My dp is an hr manager in the private sector. His response to this is 'bollocks'. Apparently legalisation is being to passed currently to ensure ivf is covered under normal sickness and medical leave, but that any good employer will be currently be giving paid leave as a matter of course (his company does).

I always find it amusing that private sector employees acuse teachers of being martyrs and then claim how hard they have it. I'm glad I have dp on hand to dispel this for me (and how I love the stories of some employees sense of entitlement he has encountered). Btw I know that this is a minority of private sector workers - just like its only a minority of public sector workers who take the piss.

stopthatmavis Mon 03-Dec-12 21:02:56

My heart bleeds for you Feenie and how tough life is!

Feenie Mon 03-Dec-12 21:01:53

And that was to Stopthatmavis, obviously.

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