Five men facing death penalty after bus rape

(504 Posts)
allthegoodnamesweretaken Sun 13-Jan-13 19:15:31

BBC news link here

I'm feeling conflicted about this. Obviously what these men did was horrific, vile and unforgivable. But I just cannot agree with the death penalty.

I feel like I am somehow excusing what they did by not wanting them to be killed, and I can't emphasise enough how despicable I find their actions.

Does the fact that they violated the poor woman's human rights so violently and abhorrently mean they should have their right to life taken away too? Am i being too soft?

I suppose I am asking how you all feel about this, how do you think they should be punished? Also have you ever had your feminist views conflict with other principles, and how have you dealt with this?

<Really hoping I don't get flamed>

AnAirOfHope Sun 13-Jan-13 23:48:50

Maybe India needs to do this to make a stand and change the law to protect women better?

As i dont live in India i dont think i can comment on their legal system.

Im glad i live in the UK and support not having the death penatly.

noblegiraffe Sun 13-Jan-13 23:53:38

Those who want them killed: How sure are you that the police have got the right culprits?

WantsToBeFree Sun 13-Jan-13 23:55:30

Firstly, if you are referring to the horrific Delhi gang rape case, then the verdict isn't out yet. They haven't yet been given the death penalty.

The six men who did that to Jyoti are disgusting, sick, horrible, and fucked up people. They disemboweled, mutilated and violated her with an iron rod. Had she survived, she would never have been able to eat, have sex or have children. She would have been a living corpse. She wanted to live, she was a 23 year old with dreams to fulfil, but she ended up dying in the worst way imaginable.

I am usually against the death penalty, but I want these six men to hang. I don't want them to have any kind of future-in jail or outside it- because they denied Jyoti that same basic right.

It makes me sick in the stomach to imagine that someone can commit such a heinous crime and then expect to get away with just 7-14 years in jail.

I'd like to point out to everyone that India is not considering making the death penalty a standard for every rape case at all. It is considered in only the "rarest of rare" cases and in those in which the evidence is infallible. In this case, there is no doubt about who did it, nor is this a mild crime where the accused can be considered capable of reform. Therefore, in this case I am not against them being hanged.

I am also of the opinion that in many countries like India where the police force is weak, criminals have a tendency to not take the law seriously. They aren't afraid of raping women because it's just 7 years in jail if they get caught , and even then they can easily get bail or parole. Until and unless they begin to fear the consequences, they will continue to rape. The death penalty should definitely not be made a standard, but in this case it may just send out a very strong message and give rapists the wake up call they so badly need.

Lastly, I like to put myself in the other person's position before forming an opinion.What if I was Jyoti? What if I was her mother or her sister? What would I want in the form of justice? There would be rage, frustration, and a helplessness within me. I would die a second death to see the men being let off with just a few years in prison. An Indian news channel revealed what Jyoti wanted for her attackers- she wanted them burnt alive.

AbigailAdams Sun 13-Jan-13 23:56:20

I don't think that they would feel remorse if they were about to be hanged. They might do the old weepy weepy "we're sorry" act. But the fact is that they felt entitled to do this to Jyoti because she was a woman. Otherwise they would have done the same to her friend. They considered her as a woman was a lesser person than they were. That sense of entitlement won't disappear with the threat of death. They will just feel like they are the victims.

And that is the battle we have with stopping rape. The sense of entitlement these men have to penetrate women at their will. And I don't think just education will work. A shift in societal attitudes needs to take place and will only happen if the rape culture we live in is recognised and then no longer tolerated by those in authority. And I don't just mean the governments, but all positions of authority from teachers to prison guards to parole officers to parents to your boss at work. Violence towards women all the way down to sexual harassment on the street, not tolerated.

WantsToBeFree Sun 13-Jan-13 23:57:11

Noblegirraffe,

The forensic semen and blood analysis has established without doubt that it was these six men. Jyoti's fiance (who was present throughout the ordeal) has identified the six men. Moreover, the six men have all admitted to their crime.

Viviennemary Sun 13-Jan-13 23:57:13

I'm only against the death penalty for one reason. And that is in case the wrong person gets found guilty of the crime. But otherwise in these violent murders of innocent people I think it is justified.

ICBINEG Sun 13-Jan-13 23:58:00

YANBU. People have the right to keep themselves safe, not murder others, no matter what they have done.

noblegiraffe Mon 14-Jan-13 00:03:00

wantstobefree This news story claims that the confessions were obtained under torture and evidence has been manipulated.

How sure are you now? Still 100%?

Booyhoo Mon 14-Jan-13 00:05:11

i agree abigailadams

i absoloutely believe that to be hanged would be an early release for these men. i think it should be life in prisonment. they must live with what they have done, not be allowed to be free of it when their victim suffered til her death and her family continues to suffer all their lives because of their actions.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 00:07:06

noblegirraffe,

Please don't believe everything the DailyMail says. I am currently in India and have been following this case closely on local news channels. The western media hasn't covered the story accurately at all.

Jyoti had given her statement of the ghastly attack and descriptions of each man before she died. Her male companion(who was there throughout) identified the six men. The semen and blood of each of the six men was tested and found to match with what was found in the bus and on her body.

It isn't just about the confessions.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 00:10:42

I am sickened that people here believe that murderers and rapists have "rights". Call me uncivilised but I have no such beliefs.

Men like this are not human- they are animals and they don't deserve ANY rights. There are criminals who are capable of rehabilitation and there are crimes which are pardonable- this definitely doesn't fall into that category.

I have never understood this "liberal" sympathy for criminals.

And I definitely don't understand a feminist forum talking about the "rights" of rapists.

noblegiraffe Mon 14-Jan-13 00:11:56

wantstobefree that wasn't the Daily Mail, that was the BBC confused

I am surprised that you have managed to return a guilty verdict based on what you have read in the media (while telling me not to believe everything I read in the media!) when these men have not even been tried yet!

Are you suggesting that torture is never used in India by the police? Or that there would have been no pressure to arrest anyone, therefore no incentive to manipulate evidence? That the international eyes being on India would have no influence on a swift and decisive outcome?

Booyhoo Mon 14-Jan-13 00:20:59

these men are human.

animals do not treat their own, or even any other species as badly as this!

noblegiraffe Mon 14-Jan-13 00:39:28

Having thought more about this, it seems nonsensical to on the one hand complain vocally about the corrupt justice system and the incompetent police who have failed for years to deal correctly and in line with the law with rapists in incidents matching this in horror, and then on the other hand believe that this same justice system, and the same police are so scrupulously fair and meticulous that it would be impossible for anyone other than the correct perpetrators to be executed for this crime.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 00:39:29

noblegiraffe,

I don't quite understand why you are being needlessly confrontational.

The DailyMail ran a similar article, which is why I asked. Nonetheless, as I stated, the European and American media have not really covered this story accurately at all. There are many discrepancies that I have noticed.

I don't know how you got the impression that I have passed a verdict based on what I have read in the media? I am simply relaying the information that I have gathered from Indian news reports, being that I am currently in India.

Even if they have manipulated it, even if the beat a confession out of the six accused, why would the girl and her boyfriend (the victims themselves) identify the very same six men?
Unless you have some bizarre conspiracy theory where Jyoti and her fiance are also in cahoots with the police to nail the wrong men?

Honestly, is this really a feminist forum? We're sitting here and discussing the rights of rapists? WTF.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 00:47:19

Noblegiraffe,

I suspect that even if it were established with certainty that it was these six men who committed the crime, you'd still be against the death penalty.

Lastly,I can assure you that for its faults, for India, justice in this case is not about proving something to the developed world- its about bringing about a change in their own system. Trust me when I say that they don't give flying rat's arse whether the UK and USA agree with what they are doing or not. So "international eyes" being on India is irrelevant. This isn't about the western stamp of approval- this is about what works for their own country.

You are coming across as a little elitist to assume that the Indian system of justice is completely incompetent and incapable. Yes, it has its faults, but so does every system in the world.

noblegiraffe Mon 14-Jan-13 00:49:55

I'm not discussing the rights of rapists, I'm discussing the use of the death penalty.

I have thought about this case and the death penalty long and hard, because I am anti the death penalty and yet my first instinct in this case was 'string the bastards up'.
But given the problems with the implementation of the death penalty, I cannot support its use in a system of justice, however tempting it might be as a 'one-off'. Because it wouldn't be a one-off. And even as a one-off it is difficult to be 100% sure of the facts, as I have concluded, and if you can't be 100% sure, how can you condone it?

noblegiraffe Mon 14-Jan-13 00:53:01

You are coming across as a little elitist to assume that the Indian system of justice is completely incompetent and incapable

Don't fret, I think any justice system reliant on humans is fallible, and I wouldn't trust any with the death penalty. Although, let's face it, the Indian record for justice in rape cases doesn't make it appear to be a particularly great example.

ZooAnimals Mon 14-Jan-13 01:00:25

I'm with you OP. I don't agree with the death penalty, at all, for anyone, under any circumstances.

If something like this happened to my mother/sister/friend I would want them killed, I would want to do it myself, slowly.

I don't agree with a legal, rational, calm process culminating in murder.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 01:01:20

The Indian system has a record for not convicting rapists, not charging and hanging innocent people indiscriminately. So I don't see what you're going on about.

You keep saying we can never be 100% sure. So what does that mean? The victim and her friend BOTH described and identified the wrong men? And these men just co-incidentlally happened to be the same ones the police had said had semen matches with the samples from Jyoti's body and the bus?

Anyway, this argument is pointless. Evidently, nothing at all is going to convince you. If you were a judge, I doubt anyone at all would ever get convicted of anything since everything is suspect in your eyes.

WantsToBeFree Mon 14-Jan-13 01:02:37

Yes, I get it. You are anti-death penalty. I am not- I believe that some people deserve to die and these are six of them.

ZooAnimals Mon 14-Jan-13 01:08:22

Eyewitness testimony is not 100% accurate. If the suspects where picked by the police first (which you seem to indicate they were), it's very easy to get a false positive ID, particularly when the eyewitnesses have been through utter horror.

noblegiraffe Mon 14-Jan-13 01:14:14

wantstobefree eyewitness identification is notoriously unreliable as a form of evidence. People can be led to identify particular suspects, perhaps ones that the police have already singled out, or they can be just plain mistaken in their identification. And let's not forget the poor victims were horrifically beaten and their recollection of events may have be impaired.

I am not saying that the wrong men have been charged. I am saying that I'm not 100% sure that the right men have been charged. And that rules out the death penalty, which can never be taken back.

Obviously I'm not saying that the fallibility of the justice system means that people should never be convicted of crimes and locked away; it's just that the death penalty is final and irreversible.

noblegiraffe Mon 14-Jan-13 01:17:37

Do you want these 6 people to die because in your mind you are 100% sure that it was them that did it? Or are you happy to execute people who may be innocent?

Wanting the 6 people who actually did it to be killed is, IMO, not the same as wanting the people that are in custody for doing it to be killed.

"Read my post above. Women will continue to be raped and abused by men. It won't cease a bit until there is at least a death penalty."

Except it happened in a country where there is a death penalty! It didn't deter them. It doesn't work as a deterrent. And justice cannot be based on vengeance.

Being anti the death penalty doesn't mean you think that the murderers have "rights". What it does mean is that you don't agree with murder full stop, and don't think state sanctioned murder is an exception.

You cannot say without being hypocritical "killing someone is wrong, unless we kill you, that is ok"

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