Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

(892 Posts)
SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Fri 19-Oct-12 10:05:41

Never read such a load of twaddle in my life:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/19/strip-clubs-new-normal

"Is it good or bad that for young men, going to a strip club is the new normal? I'd venture that it's a good thing. It's a place where they can step outside the anxiety-fraught dating scene and talk to a woman who, as long as he keeps tipping, will give him the time of day. It's a world where women parade around nude or nearly so in which doing so doesn't get anybody arrested or elicit gasps. It's a private room wherein a lap dance is on the table and a man expressing his sexuality isn't going to be met with a sexual harassment lawsuit."

Oh yes, because thanks to the feminazis it's now illegal to talk to women hmm

PosieParker Thu 25-Oct-12 18:00:37

Fawcett society and Lilith project.

Perhaps you're missing the point about choice, Frans. Soon sex work can be advertised at your local job centre and if you don't work you may lose your benefits, do you still think it's a choice?

StewieGriffinsMom Thu 25-Oct-12 18:30:42

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DadDancer Thu 25-Oct-12 21:14:26

PosieParker
I keep thinking about the 'for' arguments for lap dancing and cannot for the life of me find one I agree with

well obviously, lap dancing clubs aren't your cup of tea so you aren't going to see any positives and even if you did i doubt you'd admit to them

Lap dancers are consenting adults. It's their bodies so their choice right? Actually no. One choice is a silly word and two it has far reaching consequence for the whole of society, not in the least sexual crime rises in the proximity and that the guys that oggle women in the club are more likely to oggle all women, the objectification spreads.

so what you are implying is that i am more susceptible to committing crimes because i go to lap dancing clubs? i am sorry but you just can't go around making allegations like that. The crime stats are far lower in the vicinity of lap dancing clubs when compared to other night time entertainment venues and that is a fact.

How predictable for you to then quote the Lilith report. You obviously haven't done your home work.
1st rule when arguing against lap dancing clubs is don't mention the Lilith report. wink

Also choice is silly word? what kind of an argument is that?
i tell you what a silly word is and that's 'objectification. As it's based on an a generalisation and it assumes the worst of people, the lowest common denominator. How do you know that people who go to lap dancing clubs objectify the dancers? where's your evidence that it effects the wider society?

Soon sex work can be advertised at your local job centre and if you don't work you may lose your benefits,
that's no true either.

DadDancer Thu 25-Oct-12 21:27:03

StewieGriffinsMom
^I always find it troubling when men suggest that women dancing naked for their sexual entertainment is just like background noise. It's there if you want but that you don't need to.

Such an incredibly dismissive way to refer to a person. Even without everthing Posie said.^

That's just over analysis of what i said which was simply that you can go to lap dancing clubs just for drinks. Please don't put word into my mouth and i must correct you the dancers aren't background noise they are the stars of the show.

StewieGriffinsMom Thu 25-Oct-12 21:46:15

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Frans1980 Thu 25-Oct-12 21:53:45

A 2003 report by Lilith claimed rape in Camden rose by 50% after the introduction of lap dancing clubs. But it appears the researchers set out with an agenda and tweaked the facts and biased things to get the results they wanted.

A closer unbiased look comes to the conculsion of: There is no statistical evidence for a specific crime problem around lap-dancing clubs in Camden

melonfarmers.wordpress.com/2012/05/12/stripping-out-the-bollox-so-much-for-the-lilith-report-that-claimed-camden-strip-clubs-attract-crime/

www.scribd.com/doc/47185652/Green-Paper-Camden-Lilith-rape-stats

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Thu 25-Oct-12 22:00:43

"Yeah lap dancers primary objective is to sell dances but it doesn't mean you cant have fun or get a bit of rapport going. "
How sad is this. They despise you, mate. And rightly so.

DadDancer Thu 25-Oct-12 22:01:24

Actually, the evidence does not exist that lap dancers make more in one night than shelf stackers. They have to pay to dance on the stage. Each club has more dancers than they need so many of hte women are dancing for negative money on any given night.

According to this guardian article, average earnings are £232 a night. Pretty sure shelf stackers don't get paid this for a nights work.

www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/feb/15/lap-dancing-students-funding-studies

Love the 2nd newest comment from the top by a dancer named as 'c243dvx'
Absolutely spot on, i recommend you read it.

Frans1980 Thu 25-Oct-12 22:07:25

"Love the 2nd newest comment from the top by a dancer named as 'c243dvx'
Absolutely spot on, i recommend you read it. "

here it is:

*Hello commenters,

There seem to be quite a few false perceptions about what working in one of these clubs is actually like, and I would like to offer an opportunity for anyone who has questions to ask them here.

I graduated from a prestigious university with a good degree some years ago, and CHOSE to work as a striptease artist thereafter. I should probably point out that I have never lap-danced as I would not personally feel comfortable with that, but performing on a stage and podium is something I have done for many years. I enjoy my job and have never felt degraded, which cannot be said of the many other industries I have worked in (law, media, finance to name a few). The woman who runs the club I work at is fair and supportive, and should be congratulated for creating such a nurturing working environment. I do understand, however, that many clubs are not run in such a commendable way, and I believe we should work to change the way they are operated.

There are many different types of men and women who come to see me and other performers at work. Some are appreciative of the art form, others are not. Some women perform with little understanding of the subtleties of what they are doing, whilst others are commended for their artistic merit. There are ardent feminists working within the industry and fighting for our right to continue performing just as there are vociferous feminist groups who labour to have us closed down. We can no longer talk of just one feminism. There is no generic customer. There is no generic stripper.

As a performance that incorporates sexuality, it is inevitably controversial and divides opinion massively, but my experience of it has been overwhelmingly positive. It has allowed me a forum to explore that sexuality, to claim it as my own, to embrace being a woman whose sexuality is important to her. As such it has been a very rewarding job both intellectually and psychologically.

My main reason for writing here is that I feel striptease and sexuality need to be demystified. I believe that as a society we need to talk more about what these things mean to us and to learn from each other, rather than simply pitting opposing opinions against one another and letting the louder voice win. On that note, if anyone has any questions about working as a stripper that they feel would help their understanding, then please let me know.*

DadDancer Thu 25-Oct-12 22:08:02

KarlosKKrinkelbeim
How sad is this. They despise you, mate. And rightly so.

er how do you know that? and no need for the insults 'mate'.
If you have a constructive argument to make then please put one forward

Just to clarify:

'In the research study by Leeds, most women worked between two and four eight-hour shifts a week, and the average earni ngs were £232. However, there was huge variation between clubs, reflecting the diversity of work available. While Barnes generally makes £60-£80 a night to help fund her degree dancing privately for individual clients in her underwear, Nilsson can often earn up to £200 a night for her MSc by putting on collective shows for large audiences in a strip club that offers something much closer to burlesque entertainment.'

I am not convinced that 232 quid for a week's work is brilliant. Isn't it just over 1k per month?!

So I think you missed the crucial bit there!

DadDancer Thu 25-Oct-12 22:17:34

Cheers Frans180

MooncupGoddess Thu 25-Oct-12 22:17:40

£60-80 a night for a (no doubt exhausting) eight-hour shift is £7.50 to £10 an hour. Not a fantastic rate of pay by any means.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Thu 25-Oct-12 22:21:07

i know because plenty of them say as much. Plus it stands to reason, doesn't it? However desperate you are to convince yourself otherwise.

I find the way that stripping is now justified by looking at students (so privileged! So naice and pretty and clever! They must know what they are doing!) is really sick.

There is a whole complex of factors pushing at female students. It's horrible. Clubs that give a discount if you take a 'sexy' photo. Pubs that promote student nights as times to strip off and get 'sexy' or, if you're male, to pick up a girl or two. Fancy dress nights with prizes for the best dressed (=most naked) girl. Student stand-up taking after the Frankie Boyle model and thinking rape is hilarious.

I know there are good things coming out of university women's offices, but I think that female students are held up as 'proof' that educated women 'choose' this lifestyle, therefore it can't be bad.

This is wrong on two levels.

One: do we know how these women feel when they are older, and less desperate for money? Yes, we do. They get the hell out of that 'job'.

Two: why is it ok for more educated/privileged women to be made into an example that pisses over the poorer, less privileged women who make up the backbone of the sex industry? Isn't there something hugely uncomfortable at taking a 19-year-old, who works as a stripper for six months while relying on the (huge) support of a university, probably a family, the goodwill of the law enforcement, etc. etc., and making her representative of what this industry is?

What about the other women who're not so eloquent about how empowered they feel, but who're stripping or having sex for money because that's what there is, or their mum did it, or their pimp beats them up when they don't, or whatever it happens to be? Isn't it appalling that they're also suffering from this message that it's 'glamorous' and fine?

SinisterSal Thu 25-Oct-12 22:53:21

yy LRD.

As an aside I am hugely impressed by that striptease artist quoted above! First a prestigious university, then law, media, and finance. Probably didn't have time to work her way up all those ladders though. Luckily she'll have quite a pick of choices to fall back on once she gets left behind because shes 30 ready to move on.

DadDancer Fri 26-Oct-12 00:06:21

KarlosKKrinkelbeim
Thats still not a constructive argument 'mate' Unless you are going to back up your comments up with some evidence then there really isn't anything to go on. Keep trying

With all due respect, dd, it is very rude to ask another poster for evidence while failing to admit the flaws pointed out in the evidence (hardly evidence, it was a newspaper article!) you linked to!

Come on: admit you misunderstood/misread and we can call it quits. Calling on someone else for 'evidence' in this situation is just silly.

rosabud Fri 26-Oct-12 00:46:48

The fact that we have a situation where it is possible to earn more money by stripping or lap dancing than stacking a shelf is appalling. Rather than an argument FOR stripping it should be seen as an argument against it. Being able to earn more money by servicing a small part of the male population if you happen to be young and have a sexy body as opposed to by working at a regular job which services the whole community and which can be carried out by anyone of any age/ gender/ degree of attractiveness shows where the power balance in our society lies - and it's certainly not with the ordinary (predominantly female) shopper in Tescos.

Wallison Fri 26-Oct-12 00:56:03

Well, all I can say is: lucky lucky women. Who cares that they are confining their expression of their own sexuality to becoming a conduit for the most lazy of male fantasies - that of a compliant and sexually available woman who has no criteria other than how much money the guy has? Who cares indeed that this has nothing to do with female sexuality at all? After all, you make less money stacking shelves, so they must be empowered, eh?

DadDancer Fri 26-Oct-12 01:51:29

LRDtheFeministDragon are you the forum judge and jury? If i was rude to Karlos then too bad as he was very rude to me in his first comment. Let me remind you of what he said:

'How sad is this. They despise you, mate. And rightly so.'

So you think that is an acceptable comment do you? and if not then why not pull him up on it like you have just done with me?

ok so i could have linked direct to the Leeds university document but that's beside the point. I simply was demonstrating that there is evidence on what lap dancers typically earn and if i got the figure wrong then fine. People are free to interpret the figures for themselves. Also if it is £232 a week then that is still based on part time hours, for between 2 to 4 days work. If you take 3 as an average then it's about £80 a night, so £400 a week if it was full time. So a pro rata of about £20k. Still a lot more than you'd get for stacking shelves.

Wallison Fri 26-Oct-12 02:02:36

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

SinisterSal Fri 26-Oct-12 02:09:28

grin

Frans1980 Fri 26-Oct-12 02:33:12

It's an acceptable comment because it's true. They think you're a wanker (which you are, literally).

So who appointed you the spokesperson for all strippers?

PosieParker Fri 26-Oct-12 08:13:29

Ah I see Frans and Dad, I can't imagine either are parents, are trying to justify their own activities. This is how people manage to be patrons and kids themselves that they like women.

It's quite funny really, almost like that Happy Hooker myth, I say almost I mean just.

In my city we have five lap dancing bars, one of which was definitely found offering more than is legally available and one close by had a fourteen yr old lap dancing for months before she was discovered. This tells me the owners couldn't really give a shot about the women who work there.

It makes perfect sense that when men go to a lap dancing club and objectify women, unless you all sit talking about her personality and political views, it stands to reason that some of those men will continue to see women as tits and arse when they leave.

And you have no idea who you're watching when you go to these clubs, whether she's trafficked, a victim of abuse, a drug addict etc.

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