Mumsnet Talk

I wonder if I have been sitting here with you all too much, and it has skewed my thinking, and thinking that my views are maybe more mainstream than they are.

And that stepping back out into the real world, suddenly ideas which I would have thought were quite obviously normal and sensible, are apparently off the wall and bananas.

basically I had a bit of a run in today about something, and what I am thrown by is that people who I would very much have expected to agree with me, thought the opposite.

It has really confused me and I don't know where to put it. I don't want to say exactly what is was as walls have ears but it was something like, maybe, shouldn't they move the soft porn mags off the bottom shelves, and the resounding answer from a group of women with children, being no.

I am all and upset

What do you all do when this sort of thing happens? Has my time on here made me incompatible with the outside world?

I have a range of strategies. I weigh up the costs to my career/personal safety/mental health against the likelihood of me convincing the person with the opposed opinion or a bystander to change their mind or behaviour.

This means that sometimes I don't say anything - I simply pretend that they are insane, that I am in a mental institution with them and that I believe myself to be Napoleon.

If I do try to convince someone and don't, I remember 2 things:

1. Sometimes people disagree with you at the time but at some later point, your comments contribute to them changing their mind. I have changed my mind at a later point after various arguments from different people over time have convinced me.

2. Society does change. When I would go on about homophobia 20 years ago, it seemed inconceivable that so many people would start to agree with my view point and the law would change as it has done.

I also try to get some energy back by talking to colleagues from Iceland and Denmark about feminism. I have a Danish colleague who responds to my rants by saying 'everyone in Denmark agrees with you.'

But still, it can be depressing and I feel for you. There are seldom prizes for standing up against prejudice though.

I know exactly what you mean. I find myself biting my tongue all the time at the moment because i don;t want to always be the one going "don't you mean, men AND WOMEN?" etc. I am constantly torn being letting the side down and being a big old spoilsport.

at 'I believe myself to be Napoleon

The fact is that it IS depressing - at least on here you can (mostly) avoid the DM readers.

It depends on the situation. That sounds like a tough one, because I guess with a group of mothers you're going to expect them to feel protective towards their children and maybe at least open to the idea that lads mags shouldn't be right in kids faces the way they are at the moment. And when a group like that doesn't agree with you it's going to be more painful and confusing than say a group of young blokes in an office thinking differently.

Agree with Milly that you have to pick your battles and it's OK to do that. You don't have to publicly fight this if it isn't safe for you any reason.

Hold on to the fact that simply saying it is important. Even if people didn't agree with you, you made the point, you changed the narrative that we all have to agree with the pornification of the culture and if people don't like it, well they just need to keep quiet. And like Milly says people may change their minds at different times. See yourself as planting a seed that now has the opportunity to grow. They'll remember you next time they see Nuts and Zoo in the newsagents and what you said.

But it probably has made you incompatible with most of the rest of the world, at least about this topic. It is a lot safer to argue on Mumsnet about these things, because even if people disagree there probably isn't quite the same kind of social pressure to adhere completely to the status quo. A good argument based on facts is going to be stronger written down, than one arguing with a group of people who aren't interested in having their minds changed.

Sorry you're feeling bad.

Torn between, I mean.

I think the thing is that I've been fairly isolated on mat leave for over a year - and having a lot of conversations on here where I have tested my views out about lots of things and am very sure.

TBH it came as a shock to me as well as to everyone else that this big row forthright discussion erupted, and i need to think about that. I have never been a confrontational person before and I was quite taken aback by how I was. I seem to have lost my let it go/move on from the subject thing. Maybe that comes from being on here where I am terrible at walking away until everyone has accepted that I am right

Dittany my example wasn't the actual thing - but close enough I think. It was a shock as it was a response I competely wasn't expecting. And my reaction to that was a bit out of the blue.

Thanks for the tips all I am going to have to relearn how to bite my tongue I think!

But there is nothing wrong with being right!

I think you were right

The thing wasn't the magazines! It was the same sort of thing, but not. Trying to to be spotted

I am used to backing down and going and feeling angry/getting upset, somewhere else.

What has happened to me? I used to be -- more passive-- nice! Darn you feminists <shakes fist>

I don't know that you should bite your tounge.

I often get a reputation for being opinionated/forthright/blunt. No doubt some people hate me for it, but other people have said it is what they most like about me.

You get to meet more like minded people if you let other people know what your mind is about.

GAH! Trying not to be spotted on here, which is why I replaced the actual thing with the magazine thing.

A few people have said that one of the things that they like about me is that I listen to different ideas and weigh them up and then come out with well balanced and sensible arguments/ideas.

I feel as if I lost that today. Maybe because Ive already had all the conversations on here, my starting point was "This is how it is and I am right" end of story.

has anyone else found that after talking a lot on here?

Maybe it's having kids (aware that may not be a very 'feminist' view, please don't flame!)

I know since I've become a mother some things matter more because I am more aware that this stuff affects people - like MY CHILDREN people. So when I come accross horrible attitudes I get more het up about it - and I'm more determined about it - because I don't want my sons growing up in a society where beople are sexist/ homophobic / whatever. And I don't want them turning round in 50 years and saying 'But mum, how could you just go along with that? Couldn't poeple see it was wrong at the time?'

I always find folk who keep their opinions to themselves a bit? I don't know, you get a vibe off them anyway. I suppose it's down to how you put your opinion across. Birth and motherhood will change you anyway, you just may not want to go back to keeping it all in, and why should you?

Sorry ISNT, didn't quite spot it was an analogy.

That Feminists programme on BBC4 was full of young feminists saying how angry they were since they'd woken up to all the injustice there is against women. Mind you they seemed like the sweetest bunch you'd ever be likely to meet.

Anger is good though. It gets things done.

What I have realised from being on here is that a great many people hate feminism and actively stand in the way of the liberation of women. I have been shocked many times by the way people come on here and shout down feminists on a feminist section.

So coming on here has made me more certain that I am right, but also more certain that many people in society do not agree with me. For that reason, I know that I will be picking at the edge of society's consensus on issues concerning women. I doubt I will be winning many arguments any time soon.

In many areas of women's rights we are at a low, and as a consequence feminism does seem to be having a resurgence. I think we will be winning more arguments over the next few years.

Sometimes with the sex industry issue, me simply not laughing when someone makes a joke about pornography has become a massive issue that people comment on. I think not joining in with the alleged 'fun' of the sex industry itself starts to show what a house of cards their whole consensus is.

Also about talking on here, nope, I've actually found it encourages me to form sensible evenhanded posts. I don't think it's due to talking on here, I think by the sound of it, you've just changed slightly as a person. Unless it is like you say, road already covered here and you're maybe now a bit bored with rl friends! Tricky

I got really annoyed with a friend on day (but didn't say anything!) when she said "I'm not a feminist"
She has a professional career, works part-time while her children are small, husband is very supportive and has alerted his work hours to be an active supporter of family life which enables them both to continue with their careers and be good parent.
I see her life as a great example of the positive impact of feminism over the last 50 years and was really sad that she couldn't recognise that she was reaping the benefits of a lot of hard work from "feminists", she can't identify with who have worked hard and suffered lots of critism for many years.

For some reason it is not trendy to want to defend the rights of women - I think by saying that women need defened then we are not equal which I think alot of women believe they are therefore they don't see the significance of modern day mens mags etc

This was a normalisation of sex industry thing, I think my analogy/example was reasonable.

<sigh>

I think the becoming a mother thing has changed me as well - a lot has happened in the last couple of years and my life has changed totally in so many ways - and I'm sure that MN is a part of it - maybe this is just how I am now and I need to learn how to manage my feelings after I do have a heated conversation. I have always been very opinionated but also very mollifying IYSWIM, I would state my view and then disengage/leave if it got out of hand. In fact I don't think I used to get into many arguments...

All part of the rich tapestry and all of that I suppose

I think the word 'feminism' itself is scary for some poeple, and politicises issues they see as merely 'personl choice'. Of course they ARE political issues, but poeple don't necessarily IDENTIFY them as such.

For me, tbh, although I have experienced discrinination myself as a woman (as I'm sure we all have), it is feminism's attempt to address and bring attention to the truly horrendous situation of many women in the developing world that really gets me on board. I am a feminist - because I think it's wrong that women are still considered property in some societies. End of.

OP it is tough I agree. I have really begun to question the status quo in my own thinking since reading more of these threads on MN. I realised that I have been guilty of rather lazy thinking, inculcated in me by my upbringing by conservative parents, and by marrying someone from a similar background.

As a small example I made the point recently with a recently-married-and-keen-to-start-a-family professional, liberal, middle class couple about how men so often "babysit" their children. They both argued that this was "just" a matter of lingustics / semantics. They really didn't want to see or hear that mothers rarely if ever would say they would babysit their own children, whereas fathers often do. Thereby, imo, revealing a very real split between expectations, role and responsibilities in the domestic sphere. I was utterly astonished that they chose to dismiss the issue, both of them. The man first and his wife then agreeing with him.

And becoming a mother identifies you in a deep way with other women, because of the shared experience of motherhood. So it comes to bother you more if you see women exploited. That's my experience anyhow.

It's helpful that so many on here have had experiences like this, and so much good advice about what to do to deal with it

The person who was the main person in disagreement i don't actually know that well. i guess maybe it is a good idea to be very sure before raising things.

it just seemed so obvious to me that it wasn't right though, that is what's thrown me so much. I'm a bit "what's becoming of the world... <wail>".

however DH agreed with me as did one of the other people there, and I'm sure you all would too, so I'll put it down to experience!

Belleville that conversation you had sounds really annoying...

ISNT, it was really annoying and we'd all had a bit to drink and I realised belatedly that I was banging on in a rant-y sort of way and not doing myself or my argument any favours. Very frustrating when someone doesn't see what you're trying to say, or give any ground. bah.

coming on here to off load is probably a good way to deal with it!

I was definitely ranty today and was stone cold sober. It was at work

Still, never mind, onwards and upwards and all that

On that note I'm going to hit the hay.

Thanks so much for talking to me everyone, I feel a lot better