WTF is going on with my 4-month-old?

[herbaceous]

Hello all

I have a problem which I believe is shared by many, and just wondered if any of you had been through the same thing and found a solution.

My four-month-old had been sleeping through the night - 10 til 8, or so - since he was about 10 weeks old. He wasn't great at napping during the day, and would cluster feed like mad during the evening, but I thought it was a price worth paying.

It got to the stage, though, that he was so overtired by the late afternoon and evening, that I got firmer with his routine, and now have him on a roughly three-hour cycle of eat, activity, sleep. He only ever naps for 40 mins at a time, so has about 2-3 hours sleep during the day.

However, he now hardly sleeps at night. He won't go to sleep before 10 (if I put him down before then, he's wide awake, chatting, and then crying if I leave him too long), then wakes up at 2 and quite often 4 or 5 as well, staying awake for an hour at a time. He wakes up for good at 8.

He is therefore only getting about 10 hours sleep in total in 24 hours.

I am mainly breastfeeding, with a bottle of formula before bed. After a bottle of formula he's as chatty and happy as larry, whereas after bf he still seems unhappy. As i feed every three hours during the day (and did when he was sleeping through), you'd have thought the supposed increase in supply would have happened. He's also bobbing on and off the boob, and getting very distracted with both boob and bottle.

He also had his third big immunisations last Tuesday, which is about when it all started to go wrong.

So, ladies, do I:

1 Extend his naps, as he may be overtired by night time?

2 Reduce his naps, as maybe he's not tired enough?

3 Give him more formula (topping up after a bf) during the day to fill him up?

4 Hope it's 'just a phase'?

5 Punch the next health visitor who says 'growth spurt'?

[Ineedsomesleep]

I'd try giving more bf's not formula, it worked for us.

[Iloveautumn]

Teething?

My ds2's sleep went haywire from about 4 months and teething is the only answer here... unfortunately he's now 9 months and its not much better - ho hum!

[herbaceous]

But he seems to be going off the boob - keeps pulling away, fussing, almost fighting it...

[Ineedsomesleep]

I had this for a while. It could be colic. I cut out caffiene and that worked.

You really need to speak to a Breastfeeding Counsellor who can give you some tips on this. Here are the helpline numbers.

NCT Breastfeeding Line - 0300 330 0771 open 8 am till 10 pm 7 days

La Leche League Call 0845 120 2918

ABM 08444 122 949

or go to your nearest Baby Cafe

The sleep and the bfing sound like 2 separate issues.

[herbaceous]

I went to a baby cafe, and of course he latched on perfectly! The counsellor just said he was getting distracted, and I should just 'tell him' not to pull off the breast. Not sure he fully understands at four months!

[herbaceous]

Oh, and I had linked the bf and the sleeping, as his new crap bf style may mean he's not eating enough, and thus hungry in the night.

[herbaceous]

I know it's tantamount to heresy to even ask, but has anyone found feeding more formula has helped with night sleeps?

[herbaceous]

Sorry! Me again, bumping, and asking: why is the received wisdom to put babies to bed early - ie 7 or 8 - when they then seem to wake up in the early hours for more food. DS won't go to sleep that early anyway, so my plan is to carry on putting him to bed at 10, when he's tired, and gradually bring that bedtime forward as he gets more active, and as we get more desperate for our evenings back.

Also, of my NCT group of eight, the four who exclusively formula feed all have babies that sleep through the night, whereas three of the four who BF have babies who wake two or three times. Hmm.

[ches]

First: Formula/night time sleep: a popular myth. Sorry! Not a quick fix, just a highway to still having broken nights only also feeling guilty about packing in bf!

Okay.... he is distracted. You seem to be doing EASY routine, which isn't helping. BF babies like to eat when they're sleepy and play when they're awake. Before giving up the EASY routine, you can try giving him something to do while he's nursing. For my son, it was a soft toy that was fluffy on one side and silky on the other. However, you may have to start feeding on either side of his naps.

Next, yes, it is a growth spurt. Sorry, but 4 months is CLASSIC! It's not just the growing, but also the wider field of vision, transition to more daytime wakefulness, beginnings of mobility and the dawning of the oral fixation stage. He is just discovering the world, and can't get enough of it.

Cluster feeding in the evenings is very common in bf babies. They do it to stimulate supply and because there's nothing better than a cuddle with a boob in the mouth, half dozing, while getting delicious, creamy hind milk. Theoretically, this cluster feeding is what lets them get a big chunk of sleep at the start of the night.

They say that you can bring bedtime forward 15 min per week if that's what you want to do. Personally, I'd try two hours earlier than you usually do bedtime and see what happens.

[ParanoidAtAllTimes]

No advice I'm afraid but I thought I'd offer my sympathy as my 4mo ds is doing very similar things to yours! I was thinking it was my fault for not having a daytime routine in place so it's a relief to hear that it's more to do with the age.

Ches- that sounds like useful advice- I'm going to try giving him a cuddly toy while bfing and bring his bedtime forward to see if that helps.

Herbacious I hope things improve for you soon!

[herbaceous]

Thanks Ches! What v useful advice. I'd read that four months is a classic time for sleep disruption, as they are changing so fast, and reaching new milestones all the time, they find it hard to keep up.

And what you say about EASY makes sense. I was only following that routine for the sake of having a semblance of order, really. It makes more sense for it to be ESAY, as you say.

And, progress! Yesterday I didn't do the routine strictly, as I was out and about. He slept after feeding, and not that regularly, and guess what: he slept from 10 til 5, woke for a feed, and went straight back down again. Probably a coincidence, but at least I know he may not in fact wake at 2am for the rest of my life! I also drank less caffeine.

[Ineedsomesleep]

Regarding the formula sleep myth, my mum always points out that I was formula fed and didn't sleep until I started school, whereas my little sister was bf and slept 10 hours from 6 weeks.

Think its more to do with personality than anything else.

[Gavotte]

Herbalicious, two things. First, I was having similar sleep issues with my daughter when she was a similar age - for the daytime sleeps, after lots of reading for ideas and experimenting, found that her being awake for 2 hours worked best for her (whether or not you decide to feed at the beginning of hte wakeful period or at the end) - so I put her down for a nap 2 hours after she woke from the first one. This keeps it fairly flexible if your ds sleeps for a shorter or longer time, or wakes at a different time in the morning. It took a few days for it to work properly, but eventually transformed her daytime naps. A couple of people in my NCT group then tried the same and also worked for them. My daughter is now 5 and a half months and starting to go two and a half hours awake.

Second, (senses mumsnetters spitting a few teeth) from a purely sleep point of view, yes, formula works. Of course breastfeeding is better, blah blah. I know. But I was having real problems keeping up with my daughter's demands and did lots of reading on this before I gave up breastfeeding - formula keeps babies satisfied for longer as it takes longer to digest, and you can ensure that they take a full feed during the day which fuels them overnight. And practical examples to support this - you have your NCT group, and I have noticed same pattern in mine. Within a few days of giving up breastfeeding, my daughter went from feeding every hour/hour and a half throughout the night to waking once for a feed.

Whatever you decide, good luck.

[Ineedsomesleep]

I really hope you don't give up breastfeeding before speaking to a counsellor.

Formula is no guarantee of a good nights sleep.

Keep on going, they are babies for such a short time and you've got this far.

[herbaceous]

Ineedsomesleep - don't worry. I'm not going to give up BF. He's now waking only once in the night, so if that continues I can cope with that. Part of the problem is that once he's woken me up, I find it really hard to go back to sleep, so never feel properly rested.

Gavotte - the 'two hour awake' thing is roughly what I'm doing now. It seems to work a treat. Though he tends to be awake less time in the mornings, and more in the afternoons, he'll get four naps in, of about 45mins.

I've just tried wearing him out in his door bouncer, and may try a drop of lavender oil on a tissue near his cot!

[Ineedsomesleep]

Bfing should help you get back to sleep. A know a few mums who have given up bfing, once their baby wakes them in the night they have terrible trouble getting back to sleep themselves.

As for wearing them out, do you go to a playgroup or something similar? I've taken both of mine from a very young age and watching all the older children seems to help.

[herbaceous]

But I do breastfeed him in the night! And still lie there awake, listening out for signs he's waking up again.

Last night was bad. Missed his last nap, so mega-tired by the time we tried to put him to bed around 8.30. Kept waking up until about 10.30, then again at 1.15, then at 5.30, when DP's alarm went off. Fitful ever since.

I think I'm going to start just putting him to bed earlier. Even if it does mean he wakes up around midnight/1am, at least we'll have our evenings back...

[Ineedsomesleep]

Sorry you had a bad night, hope you can grab a nap today.

We ended up putting DD to bed at 7 pm for that reasson. I still have to get up to see to her in the night but have a couple of hours with DH in the evening which is lovely.

[herbaceous]

It's just annoying because he used to sleep 8 til 7, or thereabouts, and I was hoping this non-sleeping through was just a phase. It looks unlikely, as it's been going on for over a week...

And I would grab a nap, but very unwisely have taken on some freelance work (which I agreed to do when he was having two-hour lunchtime naps) which is due in very soon. I have to do it in the 40 nap windows, which is also stressing me out and not helping the situation!

[ches]

Don't give up hope! It's growth spurt time and those are big ones at 4 months and 6 months. He will hopefully go back to sleeping through soon. Just don't keep changing things trying to "make" him sleep through. Pick something that works for you (e.g. earlier bedtime) and stick with it and he'll fall back into a pattern. xox

[herbaceous]

Thanks ches. You speak wise words.

Next thrilling happening, for all those who simply can't wait for my next installment: he's broken out in a rash. Doc says it could be a reaction to the immunisations last week, which would back up my half-baked theory of his sleep having been buggered up by them too.

Anyway, I'll stop going on now and just, as ches says, keep at it, being consistent and remembering it too will pass!

[Ineedsomesleep]

Herb, can't remember what jabs they have at 4 months but can remember that both of mine where vile about 10 days after.

Hope it passes soon and you have a better night.

[Gilby]

Yup- my DD also went through a fussing at the breast stage at this time- fine now at 5 months, lasted about 3 to 4 weeks. She's now going through a phase where her sleep is all over the place and I'm exhausted- and it's only been a week!
I have to say, with all the various problems that have cropped up in the last 5 months, the best thing I ever did was to just accept that it is a phase and let it happen (I tried the proactive method but just became more stressed about things). Invariably the problem sorted itself out- only to present us with new problems, of course!
Hope it all settles down.

[PerArduaAdNauseum]

I'm going to put on a tin hat and suggest that you move away from the EASY routine, and maybe try something more like the GF - short nap after breakfast, longer nap (up to 2 hours) after lunch, short nap if necc around 4-5pm. Bed around 7pm, then up for a fee 10.30 -11ish.

I tried DS on the EASY way, but realised pretty quickly that it stopped me being able to BF him into a nap - and who doesn't feel sleepy with a full tummy?! I also found it easier to fit in expressing, and if I needed to be out when it was naptime, I just had him in the pram with a blanket over so he slept and I got some exercise/coffee/shopping done.

It also meant that he kept the naps going for ages, and that 1.5-2 hours in the afternoon saved my sanity when he was heading towards 2yo...

If you have a DC who doesn't want to miss out on anything, then having a regular naptime really seems to work better - removing everything that they could be distracted by and getting them used to certain times of the day. It doesn't have to be completely rigid, but some babies - especially the really active ones - need a bit of structure imposed so that they can rest properly.

And if you do have a DS like mine, get a harness sooner rather than later. It used to take him less than 30 seconds to undo a supermarket safety belt, even when I fastened it under the bib of his dungarees. Erk.