Complaint regarding noise as a direct result of evening events at new major music venue

[do11y]

Dear mums netters,

I’d like a little bit of advice.

I bought my property 9 years ago. At the time, there was a large venue quite close to the property which held very occasional live gigs (around 3 or 4 a year). The venue can accommodate several thousand event goers, so is by no means small. However at the time I purchased my property, there was a rumour that this venue was going to be converted to luxury flats.

Anyway, as the years have gone by, that luxury flats idea has clearly been abandoned and this venue has started hosting many more live events much more frequently. This in turn has created much more nuisance noise which local residents have to put up with. Because the nearest station is some way from venue and we in turn live directly opposite said station, we are subjected to quite substantial increases in noise, traffic and anti-social behaviour as a direct result of these evening events. The events generally finish around 22h30 in the evenings, and the main thrust of the inconveniences we are subjected thereafter are:

1 - hundreds upon hundred of people (if not thousands!) milling passed our homes at anti-social hours (i.e.: after 23h00) in order to get to the station, but in the process making all sorts of noise and with some behaving exceptionally badly - from chanting, shouting, shrieking, to urinating in people’s gardens and littering all over the place
2 - dramatically increased traffic down our road and traffic jams with cars constantly tooting each other and at pedestrians who are walking in the street - all after 23h00!
3 - station-specific noise with staff on very loud tannoy speakers directing revellers, but in the process annoying local residents. These tannoy disruptions do not occur otherwise.
4 - severe disruptions for local residents to their local transport - for example we cannot use our local busses or trains at certain times because they are filled to capacity by event revellers.

I spoke with the event organiser of these events and so far all he’s willing to do is put up signs to ask visitors to keep quiet. In my view this is an exceptionally weak response to the problem and will not be affective at all - especially when we’re talking about large crowds of people who may be drunk.

I have also contacted the event licensing department of our local council. I have to say I am extremely disappointed with their response too. The woman I spoke with gave me no indication whatsoever that she was willing to tackle this problem. In fact she gave me the strong impression that the local residents this affects (12 dwellings) must just put up with it because the venue needs to have some way to generate revenue for itself. Unfortunately the venue is publicly owned and the Council is a major Trustee on their board, so there is a severe conflict of interest - it is in the council’s interest to have as many events at that venue as possible in order to generate maximum revenue... but at the same time they are there to protect the interests of local residents. And we certainly are quite entitled to quiet enjoyment of our own homes. Yet the council have seemed very ineffective so far - to the point, it seems, of discouraging any further fight about this.

Mums netters, what is your view? I feel local residents - even though these are only 12 homes that are directly impacted along my street - our rights should come above that of this venue - especially as the gigs only started becoming much more frequent within the last 2-3 years.

What actions would you take (bearing in mind the difficulties with the council) to try to change the situation?

[mandy214]

My personal view is that you're going to face an uphill struggle. You were on notice when you bought the house that it was a venue and still bought. Also i think snyone buying opposite a station does so on the understanding that there will be people milling around most of the time.

As far as anti-social behaviour is concerned, l'm not sure noise at 10.30/11 pm would be classed as anti - social if it is just passing - how long does the noise last for?

Sorry to be so negative - someone more knowledgeable than me might be able to assist.

[do11y]

Mandy thank you for your response.

The noise lasts from about 22h45 - 23h45 or later. For example there were 4 gigs there last week and the noise thereafter on one of the nights didn't stop until well after 00h30.

WRT buying opposite a station, I see what you're saying, however on a 'normal' night the street and station quieten down considerably from 09h30 onwards. The trains themselves stop for the night around 01h30. So we do have people coming and going quite late, but as I say it is minimal. All the noise I am complaining is as a direct result of the evening events.

[nooka]

I agree with Mandy, sorry but it was a risk you took when you moved into a house near a venue and by a train station. It might be worth talking to the local police about the anti social behaviour, but you are very unlikely to be able to do anything about the events.

[do11y]

As I say though, it was not a major events venue when I bought and these events only recently became much more frequent. The events organiser at the venue himself acknowledges this.

[nooka]

You said it was a large venue that held occasional live gigs though. Sounds like the issue is that it has subsequently become much more successful.

I do totally understand your pain, it sounds very disruptive, however it was a foreseeable possibility (as was closure). It's not a new building and presumably it still has the same license, so from a planning point of view it doesn't sound like anything has changed.

You may get more useful answers in legal perhaps.

[fakenamefornow]

I agree with the others. Also I don't agree that your rights are more important that the music venue that was there before you moved in. Sorry.

Personally I would just try it ignore the noise, it'll only bother you if you let it. If this really isn't possible for you (and it sounds like it isn't) I'd move.

[JeffsanArsehole]

Earplugs and evil plants with thorns in the garden to deter pissers.

Also you can buy those alarm thingies that only teenagers hear so you could direct one out from your window, it would make them move along faster (the councils use them to stop anti social behaviour)

Apart from that I don't think midnight is that bad.

[do11y]

Thank you so much nooka, your input has been helpful. I shall re-post in the 'Legal matters' section and see what advice I receive there. As mentioned the venue was loss-making and from what I can recall and a severe drain on council funding which was why there was that plan to sell it off to convert to luxury flats. Obviously the idea to turn it into a mainstream music venue occurred after I bought my property. I do not think it unreasonable now that local residents are complaining - especially as the number of gigs has risen from 3 - 4 a year to 3 - 4 a WEEK!

[TheGirlFromIpanema]

I think most music venues ask people to be quiet and considerate of their neighbours when leaving but that is really all that can be dome imo.

What do you see as the solution OP? Have you had any idea's that you can approach the venue management with?

[PseudoBadger]

May be of interest
www.noiseactionweek.org.uk/planning-noise-nuisance-balance-interests
Also, does the venue have a Premises Licence? You can apply for a review of the licence on Public Nuisance (and any other licensing objective) grounds.
Additionally please make sure that you call the LA noise team whenever you experience nuisance from music from the venue.

[AnneElliott]

You can seek a review of the licence, I'm surprised the local authority didn't tell you that you had that option when you called. It's best if you have your neighbours support when you do this as more complaints will go in your favour.
If you google review of licence there is guidance available. PM me if you want as I have done this for a venue that was causing a nuisance.

[PseudoBadger]

Or pm me as I deal with reviews most days
More case law www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3248989/Legal-defeat-for-neighbours-who-complain-of-pub-and-church-bell-noise.html

[do11y]

AnneElliot, Pseudo, Thank you so very much for your comments. I may be in touch privately shortly. The article you posted was extremely interesting Pseudo, thank you. One thing I found interesting was that it states: "A judge said that incomers who knew about the potential disturbance before they moved in had few grounds for challenging the nuisance." Well, upon speaking with the Licensing lady at the Council today, she said that there were consultations with local residents, but I assured her that there was never any consultation with anyone in our street regarding our thoughts on this venue becoming a major music hall and the expected impact on our quiet enjoyment.

It is not the events themselves that are of concern, it is the crowd management of the thousands of revellers once the event finishes that is of major concern.

[PseudoBadger]

Other things to do - get a copy of their current Premises Licence and planning permission(s) and make sure they are complying with all conditions

[PseudoBadger]

As a caveat OP - there are 2 bits of legislation here. Under noise law (environmental protection act 1990) you have few grounds and that is what the articles refer to.
But you can, at any point, apply for a review of the licence under the Licensing Act 2003

[PseudoBadger]

*noise law should say nuisance law

[3mum]

Having been through something similar, I think you need to get together with your neighbours. There is much more power if you all act together. Call your council's noise team out every single time there is noise after an event (so basically at the end of every event). Call the police any time there is any sort of altercation in the street even if it is just people shouting at each other. Basically you need to build a dossier and you want to get to the position where they will back up a refusal to allow the premises licence to be renewed.

Ask the venue if they will have marshals manage the street as people leave and document their response. They should take reasonable steps to manage disruption to neighbours and this is a very reasonable request.

Go to the local paper and ask them to cover your situation, they love an underdog story.

Keep at it relentlessly.

And definitely lodge an objection to the premises licence renewal citing all your evidence and the increase from the previous pattern of use. Your local courts can tell you what to do and how to find out when the licence is up for renewal. Point out to the court the lack of support from the council due to their conflict of interest. The licensing justices will not like that.

If you co-ordinate with your neighbours and organise yourselves well I think you have every chance of getting conditions imposed on the licence about frequency of events and managing traffic. If they then breach the conditions then you can seek revocation of the licence the next time it comes up for renewal.

[PseudoBadger]

"It is not the events themselves that are of concern, it is the crowd management of the thousands of revellers once the event finishes that is of major concern."

Suitable grounds for a review on 3, maybe all 4 licensing objectives I would suggest

[do11y]

TheGirlFromIpanema - that is a tough question. I have a few ideas on how to reduce the noise, the main one being to reduce the number of evening events dramatically. One a month is reasonable, I think.

I must also add that the venue separately hosts many, many daytime events too - something else which has become much more frequent in recent years. Everything from antiques collecting, to knitting and baking, even more unusual conventions such as those for gaming and tattooists. The venue already has a full daytime diary and us locals already put up with the increased traffic that brings. I think the venue is just going overboard with expecting residents to put up with evening events that sometimes go on until 03h00 in the morning. Admittedly those that finish at the time are rare, but even the raves there finish after 01h00 in the morning. Most finish at 22h30 though, at which point the residents face the major disturbances described in the original post.

[PseudoBadger]

"refusal to allow the premises licence to be renewed."

FYI there are no renewals anymore, review is the only option

[PseudoBadger]

To expand on the above (cooking dinner!) when the new LA03 act came in licensing moved from the courts to the local authority. There are no renewals and the courts are in no way involved in the day to day admin or enforcement.

[do11y]

3mum, thank you for your suggestions!! I have to say that I am like a dog with a bone when it comes to things like this. :D It is just the unfairness of the situation which really sticks in the back of my throat. I have gotten together with my neighbours (not all of them as yet) but those I have spoke with are on board so we are slowly forming a group to tackle this together.

I have thought about approaching our local councillors too. As they are separate from the Council itself, they might be less biased. The councillors hold surgeries every fortnight or so, so I was thinking of writing down our grievances and getting all neighbours to sign before presenting this to our local councillors.

Pseudo, when speaking with the licensing lady today, she did mention that I could ask for a review of the venue's licence and make an objection to the events citing nuisance noise - but she gave me the strong impression that she would not entertain any suggestion that the venue are responsible for visitor's noise once they leave the venue - she said as long as the venue take reasonable steps - i.e.: put up signs to say 'Please keep quiet', then they will be seen as taking consideration of neighbours. These are very weak measures though and we all know signs will do nothing to prevent the noise from hundreds of drunk revellers.

[PseudoBadger]

Look up your councils statement of licensing policy. Does it have any information on their expectations regarding management of late night noise? Compare and contrast it with appendix 11 of this one www3.westminster.gov.uk/docstores/publications_store/Statement_of_Licensing_Policy_As_Published_January_2011.pdf (other licensing policies are available )

[do11y]

Bedtime reading - thank you Pseudo, I cannot tell you how helpful you and others have been. Hooray for mums!!

- thank you thank you thank you!

If there is anything else you can think of in the meantime myself and my neighbours would be so appreciative of any other comments and advice.

[PseudoBadger]

Guidance for venues musicvenuetrust.com/2015/09/protect-your-music-venue-from-anti-noise-legislation/