The right age to start school - I've changed my mind

[emkana]

Coming from Germany, where children start school at the age of six/seven I used to think that four was terribly early for starting school, that it was depriving children of their childhood.

Now dd, who is nearly five, is coming to the end of her reception year, I've changed my mind. I think it's wonderful what she's learned in her time at school. Big words, big concepts, a lot about social interaction, her reading has come on in leaps and bounds, and she has enjoyed every moment of it.

But then again other children might not be as lucky as her...
nevertheless, I feel now that children mostly benefit from school at this age, as long as it is done well. In Germany, on the other hand, Kindergarten is often all about unstructured free play all day every day, then when school starts it's straight into very structured, disciplined learning - a big culture shock! Here, at dd's school, it seems to be done so gradually that they move from lots and lots of play to more and more structured learning, that they hardly notice it at all. And the learning they do still seems to be mainly fun for them.

[Ellbell]

Hi emkana... how are you doing?

Had exactly this conversation with our friends in Germany when we were there about a month ago. Their ds1 is the same age as my dd1 (nearly 6) and she has been at school (first part-time, then full-time) for nearly two years, whereas he won't start till September. I think that the way in which we gradually introduce more formal learning here is (at least, when it's done well - I am lucky enough to have a really good school) much more sympathetic to the child's needs than what you describe in Germany... from totally unstructured to intensely formal in one fell swoop. My friend's ds won't start school till September, but already both of them (mum and son) are massively stressed about it. It all seems very pressured.

I was also shocked to find out that (at least in Bavaria... might be different in other states, I don't know) that children finish school at 11.30... right into secondary school.

OTOH, the German students I've met all seem very intelligent, motivated and informed - more so than many of our own students! -, so it seems to 'all come out in the wash' in the end!

Glad your dd is happy though. My dd2 has just entered reception (still part-time atm) and is loving it.

[emkana]

Hi Ellbell, thanks for asking, I'm okay.

Yes, it's quite common in Germany for school to be only until 12 noon at primary age. Even at seconday it's often finished by lunchtime - even though there is a lot of talk about making school go on into the afternoon.

You're probably right, at the end of the day many pupils/students come out okay anyway. I wonder about the ones from deprived backgrounds though, whether they might not benefit from more "input" at a younger age.

[Ellbell]

Yeah, that's true... The ones I see (i.e. those who make it to university and then go on exchanges to universities in the UK) are probably a fairly select bunch. I think what really struck me about my friend's attitude, though, was how stressful starting school was. It was such a big deal. Whereas here it has been a really easy transition, and I don't think that dd1 even thinks that she goes to school to work... it's all just a big game still (she's coming to the end of Yr 1).

[emkana]

In Germany the whole starting school thing is a major issue - from buying the "Ranzen", the big heavy bug the children all lug around, to planning the events for the first day at school (often involves inviting the whole family around), to filling the "Schultuete", a cone-shaped cardboard thingy that is filled with sweets and knick-knacks for the first day.

I did have one of those for dd1 when she started, I thought that was quite a nice thing to have!

[foundintranslation]

Ellbell, emkana... this 'play play play until 6 and then WHAM' thing in Germany is an observation I've made too. I've heard school starting relatively late justified with the argument 'give them as much childhood as possible' - as if 'childhood' had to stop when children start school! dh (oh dear, just come up with another cultural sticking point between us...) was genuinely horrified when I told him I started school at 5 and had more or less taught myself to read at 3.
I think - as you say, em - that especially those children who are at a disadvantage anyway from their home background miss out - and in that group especially those for whom German is not a first language. The German school system has been described as very socially polarising and I think this is part of the problem.
(em, sorry if it sounds like I'm being quite free with my criticism of your country - I feel half German by now really :) )

[emkana]

Please criticize away - after all I'm slagging my country off tonight wherever I can.

I feel half-English by now as well. It's just one interesting how you gain such a different perspective on things by living somewhere else, whereas I probably wouldn't have questioned some of those things if I was still living there.

[SueW]

I noticed with DD's class - she is now in Y4 - that there were lots of children for whom it suddenly seemed to click at the end of Y2/in Y3. Some of their parents had spent the first few years quite stressed out that their children were 'behind' but now they have 'caught up' - reading and writing have fallen into place.

I think for some children the early start is great. And for others it's important that school and parents both realise that it might take longer. Difficult though if you're the parent of the child who is 'behind'.

[Linnet]

if they finish school at 11:30/12pm what time do they start in the morning?

just wondering

[emkana]

eight o'clock generally

[Ellbell]

SATS at the end of Yr2 don't help with that either, Sue W.

Poor old Germany... I've even been rubbishing its weather over on your other thread, emkana!

[foundintranslation]

SueW - ISWYM, but I think in many ways that problem exists (in some form or other) where there is a later school start too, just deferred, as it were. The German system also has a division by ability into three school types (sadly with corresponding degrees of prestigiousness and prospects attached) at the end of Y4, which mans that those who have come from home with a disadvantage can really have problems catching up and developing their potential, and many end up at the 'wrong' school type :( .

[foundintranslation]

We did have a pretty long-drawn-out winter over here, Ellbell - but now it's fab - temps in the low 20s, sunshine, cooling breeze, explosion of blossoms and wild flowers :)
Sorry all - first I hijack the other thread, then I go off-topic on this one...

[emkana]

fit - will you please concentrate, we're trying to have a serious debate here!

[foundintranslation]

gimme a break em, I am an hour later and tireder

[foundintranslation]

and to cap it all I kill the thread

[SueW]

You didn't - I was just composing :)

[SueW]

And I maanged to boil a somewhat verbose post down to:

I don't think there is a right time to start school.

[emkana]

Well well SueW - that leaves me with not a lot more to say really!

What we need is somebody to come on and say that they categorically believe children shouldn't start school until they are seven. I know there are some people on MN who have that viewpoint.

But as we're lacking that input...
maybe the thread must die a death.

[foundintranslation]

shall I get dh on?

[emkana]

Nah I'm off to bed in a minute.
Thanks for the e/mail btw, have replied.

Will bump this maybe another time, to see if I can re-ignite the debate.

[pipsqueak]

sorry way off topic here but I hadnt realised Emkana that you are from Germany . I have been thinking about a trip I took to Bavaria as a teenager and I had a really yummy cheese dish which i think was called kasespetzel or something like that . It was delicious but i can't even remember the main ingredient ..maybe noodles or pasta? do you have any idea what it could be as I would love to try and recreate it? sorry i know its a bit obscure!

[Thomcat]

Hi Emkana

What an interesting and thought provoking post.

I think this is why I chose a Montessori school for my DD. She has Down's syndrome and as soon as I entered the Montessori pre school I felt it was right for her. I thought that with it's more structered routine, with it's slant slightly more towards educating rather than just play she personally would benefit more from this environment. I felt that their attitude would better prepare my little girl, with her special needs, for the big wide world, or at least 'big' school.

All I know is the pre school she attends has bought her on leaps and bounds and altho0ugh I'm nervous about 'big' school in September, I'm sure that she is ready for it, it's just me that has to deal with it now

Like SueW touches on, what is the right age. If we weren't dicated to, when would we choose our children enter that stage of their lives and would that choice be the right choice. Is it right for them, just maybe too early for us?

[emkana]

Yes, Kaesespaetzle are yummy!

The main ingredient is a type of pasta which is a speciality of Germany, called Spaetzle. As far as I know you can't buy them here, unfortunately. Don't know if the dish would work with other types of pasta.

I just had a look at a recipe and basically it's just these Spaetzle, cooked, plus fried onions and Gouda cheese, layered in an oven-proof dish and then baked. If you'd like the full recipe I'll translate it for you (but maybe not tonight).

[foundintranslation]

Pipsqueak, I am currently involved in a teaching project involving Käsespätzle! CAT me for recipe! :)

Thanks em - night night. Sleep well :)

[emkana]

See now I've gone off-topic myself!

Good night fit and everybody else.

Would love to talk some more about this another time, as I find it a really interesting topic.

Thomcat, I hope your dd has a wonderful time at "big" school!