The National Curriculum.

(199 Posts)
seeker Tue 11-Dec-12 12:13:59

People complain about it all the time.

Which bits of it do they not want their children to learn?

mrz Sun 16-Dec-12 08:32:00

Sorry Ronaldo but I think it's attitudes like yours that fails children in state and private sectors.
It takes time to get to know a child and to write off a child in a single morning is criminal in my opinion.
I'm very impressed that you are able to work out why a child behaves badly in such a short period of time and recognise your inability to ever teach the child what is acceptable.

solittletime Sun 16-Dec-12 08:48:26

Just to get back on track, does anyone have experience of the international primary curriculum?

Is anyone able to make a comparison with primary curriculum in other European countries?

I was educated in Italy and think my primary years gave me an excellent foundation. I am also happy with my dd's state school but can't put my finger on what frustrates me about the curriculum.

I work in a primary school and hate that I feel I can't stray away from the framework when helping children in literacy groups, for example.

And there doesn't seem to be much geography?

And don't get me started in teaching grammar!

Finally my view (narrow as only based on one school) is that there is so much input from teacher's but then not enough time to let children work independently.

Sorry if I haven't explained myself very well.

solittletime Sun 16-Dec-12 08:49:13

Teachers, not teacher's, before anyone starts!

solittletime Sun 16-Dec-12 08:51:11

Ok, on teaching, not in teaching. Have to correct myself since I mentioned grammar!

mrz Sun 16-Dec-12 08:51:25

I work in a primary school and hate that I feel I can't stray away from the framework when helping children in literacy groups, for example.

Why do you feel like that? The framework isn't statutory you don't have to follow it (unless your school insists ) there is lots of flexibility within the NC which is the only statutory document.

Ronaldo Sun 16-Dec-12 09:08:16

exotic fruits - by comparison to us both the Scottish school and the other place were hard. We had long discussions with the DC and his parents and he was fully aware of the exopectations and the consequencies ( except he clearly did not believe it) . No child is allowed to swear at a teacher and stay in school. Not in my school.

In state schools this mamby pamby attitude of setting a rule and then making an exception is what is wrong. No clear lines of discipline. It sends out the wrong message.

It sends out " you can do what you like, we wont do anything"

Like the NC, its a disrupters and dumber down charter. Dumb and dumber. I will not continue to argue. I have given my opinion.

Too few people have the guts to tell it like it is on MN sometimes. Despite thinking it.

Ronaldo Sun 16-Dec-12 09:11:10

The parents would still have to pay that term's fees.

No, that is where you are wrong. We did not charge the fees. We had an agreement to try him out. His parents were at their wits end. The boy was promising faithfully .... it was his previous schools fault he said. He wanted a chance. I am sure you have heard it before. We gave him a chance.

seeker Sun 16-Dec-12 09:14:33

"Like the NC, its a disrupters and dumber down charter. Dumb and dumber. I will not continue to argue. I have given my opinion."

I Have Spoken grin

I'm afraid that your paterfamilias persona carries little weight among people who actually know what they are talking about.

solittletime Sun 16-Dec-12 09:19:59

Good question mrz! Maybe I should just break from the mould! I guess I started, got given all this paperwork, and that's my current frame of reference, being relatively inexperienced.

mrz Sun 16-Dec-12 09:20:04

It sends out " you can do what you like, we wont do anything"
On the contrary it sends out the message "You've won! Carry on as you like, we don't know how to stop you so we won't bother trying." (*because obviously that's what adults do when they meet a challenge ) hmm

ReallyTired Sun 16-Dec-12 09:28:24

Ronaldo state schools cannot permamently exclude a child at a whim. Certainly not after one morning for swearing.

State schools attempt to nuture even the most troubled of children. Certainly there are children who need special educaton for one reason or another, but I feel that swearing on its own is not a reason for permament exclusion. (Ie the sort of child who repeatly throws chairs around the classroom would need special school.)

Ronaldo do you actually have an recent experience of state schools or are you just going on hearsay.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Sun 16-Dec-12 09:41:23

Oh do not start him off, reallytired! Otherwise this thread will be just like all the others about Jabed's son and career etc. he's already tried derailing it a bit but we're only on page 3: perhaps there is hope!

Ronaldo Sun 16-Dec-12 10:13:37

How recent is recent? I was working in a state school four years ago.

My DS was in one two years ago (until I removed him because of the issues of behaviuour and curriculum I have raided here).

I know one thing - nothing has improved in the last two years.

BrianButterfield Sun 16-Dec-12 10:18:06

I find that the way children have been taught English at primary school is often very prescriptive (obviously this varies but this is my general experience).

On their first lesson in y7 I ask what they liked, didn't like, were good at etc in English/literacy at primary and some of the answers make me despair. One girl wrote that she was good at "uplevelling sentences". I presume they've been taught to get a sentence to a higher NC level by adding clauses or whatever, but it's such an awful, dry, joyless view of English which goes against all my teaching principles.

In the first term of Y7 I often teach A Christmas Carol, and I wait for the first child to pipe up "you can't start a sentence with 'and"!" (and someone always does) so that I can show them Dickens does it on the first page of CC...

seeker Sun 16-Dec-12 10:23:39

I think one of the problems is that many parents, and some teachers, think that you aren't allowed to teach anything that's not on the NC.

Also, lots of younger people have q rosy view of the past, and forget that, PR NC there was no consistency. Children learned what teachers wanted to teach. Which was sometimes fantastic,inspirational and challenging, sometimes dire.

seeker Sun 16-Dec-12 10:24:49

"My DS was in one two years ago (until I removed him because of the issues of behaviuour and curriculum I have raided here)"

When he was 4.

Ronaldo Sun 16-Dec-12 10:35:50

Ronaldo state schools cannot permamently exclude a child at a whim. Certainly not after one morning for swearing

I know that Really Tired and I am really tired of hearing it again and again
(sorry about the pun). As a parent I am really tired of hearing it. It is not acceptaable for my DS to have to suffer so that teachers can pretend to be " professional" and put him in harms way whilst they have a go at "nopt giving up".

I believe our schools would ten times better or even more if they could give up. I think the single reason education does not improve and standards fall and people bemoan the existence of a state sector is precisely because teachers willo not stand up and be counted and tell the government tio get lost. The same goes for parents who need to write to their MPO's and tell them that poor behjaviour in schools needs to be addressed with exclusion of badly behaved children ( who clearly need a different type of school; to that5 the majority need).

I know why teachers shut up. Its a culture of fear. I was afraid to say anything when in a state school. For a long time I put up with abuse and lerss than acceptable standards in classes - both behaviour and in terms of education because I was afraid. My classes were well behaved compared to many more as other teachers were far more intimidated. In the end though - before I left and after I had my notice in - I took the kids to task and told them what I really thought. The initial look of shocj was followed by compliance and behaviour all round improved. I kicked the troubled ones out and told the SMT to keep them out ( and they did - these DC were suddently fropping the GCSE and doing something else or going to day release or were in isolation). I could teach and my classes got good results that year.

There is a duty of care to my DS ( and yours MNers - I am really gob smacked that you mums sit here and think its all hunkey dory) and it is not being met in state schools

If you want your child to have an education as good as those in private schools, If you want to get rid of the private sector you need first to get off your bgums and petition for a removal of inclusion.

Then you will find parents who are currently removing their DC because of the problems in state schools will send them there ( and all standards might rise)

One of the things suggested in the 1944 education act which refused to bar independent schools was that state schools under the new system would be so good no one would want to send their DC private.

For a while too it seemed to happen. Private schools cut back - then parents started to realise all was not well in the state school.

If no one mentions the elephant in the room it will never get moved and the midden heap will get bigger too.

State schools attempt to nuture even the most troubled of children. Certainly there are children who need special educaton for one reason or another, but I feel that swearing on its own is not a reason for permament exclusion. (Ie the sort of child who repeatly throws chairs around the classroom would need special school.)

Exactly - and the do so at the expense of other DC. Its not good enough. If you were to swar at a nurse or a doctor or even a call centre operative you would be cut short and sent on your way. Same should apply in schools. Its life. Its a lesson that needs to be learned young.

Ronaldo Sun 16-Dec-12 10:40:42

yes, when he was 4. I was told he had to start school in the September of that year ( the school year in which he would become 5 the next August - something often discused here).

This of course was erroneous but the LEA and the school did not tell me what the situation really was. We sent him into Reception and the rest is now history. But I learned a bit about state schools from visits during his time in that class ( before I came to MN and asked what I could do about it - and got told to take him out and HE) Thanks to advice here my DS has been saved from more opf the abuse he suffered in those few months in school. I still regret he ever had to be placed in that situation and blame myself as his father that I did not protect him as I should have sooner.

Ronaldo Sun 16-Dec-12 10:44:55

I am old enough and experienced enough not to have a rosy view ofthe past. However, nothing has improved as a result of the NC, that I am certain of.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Sun 16-Dec-12 11:02:16

On the contrary it sends out the message "You've won! Carry on as you like, we don't know how to stop you so we won't bother trying." (*because obviously that's what adults do when they meet a challenge )

Excellent post, mrz

mrz Sun 16-Dec-12 14:46:21

My DS was in one two years ago (until I removed him because of the issues of behaviuour and curriculum I have raided here).

Didn't you remove him because his teacher suggested he had handwriting difficulties and suggested helping him with fine motor skills Jabed? You got very upset with me for posting some suggested activities as I recall.

ReallyTired Sun 16-Dec-12 16:53:06

Exactly - and the do so at the expense of other DC. Its not good enough. If you were to swar at a nurse or a doctor or even a call centre operative you would be cut short and sent on your way. Same should apply in schools. Its life. Its a lesson that needs to be learned young.

Children are not adults and part of being a teacher is assisting with personal and social development. Unless you are sectioned under the mental health act it is not not complusory to see a doctor or a nurse. It is complusory to go to school.

If a deranged person (who is detained in hospital against their wishes) swears at a pychiarist or a mental health nurse then they don't get refused treatment. A mentally ill person who behaves badly may well be moved to a more secure unit but they will not be refused treatment. Education is similar. A child can swear like a trooper and still have a right to an education.

LaVolcan Sun 16-Dec-12 17:11:43

No, it's not compulsory to go to school - hence Education Otherwise or home schooling. Apart from that ReallyTired I fully agree with you.

mrz Sun 16-Dec-12 17:17:56

However if the parents have decided to enrol the child in school then it is compulsory for the child to attend.

ChristmasKnackers Sun 16-Dec-12 17:35:47

ronaldo you just sound like shit teacher to be honest. One who can't cope with the challenges we face.

I despise the fact that you are pleased that the child was thrown out. Ever heard of Every Child Matters?

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