Does 'separation anxiety' crying do damage?

[Dragthing]

We're lucky enough to be going skiing soon and childcare is provided in the chalet. However between booking and now, DD (8 months) has become v clingy and cries if I'm out of sight, ramping up to furious screams if I am away from her for more than a couple of minutes. She's OK with DH but not with anyone else. We're resigning ourselves to taking it in turns to babysit while the other skis, but friends are encouraging us to leave her in the chalet saying she'll be OK after the first outburst, as the carer distracts her. I know she'll cry a lot - she ends up really sobbing like her heart is breaking - and it breaks mine! Does this level of distress do her harm???

Am going to have to face this in June when I go back to work, but not sure I can put her thru the upset just so me and DH can have fun on the slopes...

[needmorecoffee]

According to the psychologist John Bowlby who did pioneering work on child development, yes it does.
My dd was the same but she grew out of it in her own time (and so many people said rod for own back etc etc) and now at 4 she's highly sociable.
Only adults who don't recall what its like to be a helpless baby say 'oh let them cry it out'
IMO.

[bambi06]

my ds is like this and cries if i go out of the room..real sobbing [6 months old] but luckily loves anybody that will pay him attention so im hoping that will help when i do have to leave himever with someon

[colacubes]

ohhhhhh look at you with your pioneering psychologist nmc.

Well Dragthing I am a mother, and a psychologist graduate and inmho, babies cry, and sometimes its just because they cry!!

I know I havent written papers on child development etc but I have read more than the average mother on the subject, and unless you are harming your dd, or she is being harmed when you leave (which I doubt given your concern) I wouldnt put it past her to be slightly controling of the situation, innately children are selfish and if she wants mummy then god damn it she'll scream till she gets her.

As for damage, well I am sure you can find 100 hypothesis that will tell you that you WILL harm your child and 100 that its perfectly fine.

You are the greatest judge, try not to over analysis the situation, babies cry!

And if you want a piece of psy advice, dont keep going back in there, its like pavlos dog, she cries you come running, let her know that even if mummy leaves, and she cries and feels heartbroken, mummy always comes back.

Then eventually there will be no crying because her heart wont break, cause you are there again with a big cuddle. You always come back.

[halogen]

I think it is harmful. If your child is crying for a good reason (and in this case it is a perfectly sensible reason from her point of view), how can it help if you deny her the only thing that will make it all right? I can't see how denying a child a cuddle from her mother when she wants one is likely to make her any more secure. Children crying because they can't have a biscuit at age 2 is a lot different from an 8 month old baby crying for her mother or father, IMO. A biscuit is something that a toddler wants but a baby actually NEEDS his or her primary carers. Also, I really don't think an 8 month old is capable of crying just to be arsey as colacubes suggests.

[blueshoes]

Dragthing, 8 months is very little. I would limit crying due to separation anxiety unless absolutely necessary, which in your case is not, because you say you and dh can tag team.

The only situation where I would try to get a baby used to being away from me is if I was settling her with another carer because, say, I had to go back to work. In that case, the baby may very well cry but that will lessen as the baby gets used to another carer, as your baby is used to dh.

My dd had separation anxiety from 5 months. Apart from attending nursery after I went back to work (which she did settle into), I never used a creche until dd was 3+.

[hercules1]

I wouldnt leave her with someone she didnt know. Of course they are selfish. In her eyes you have left her and of course she is going to cry. Personally I couldnt ski knowing she was sobbing for me. I would go with the taking it in turns.

[juuule]

Totally agree with nmc and lucicle.
Why Love Matters: How Affection Shapes a Baby's Brain by Sue Gerhardt gives a very good insight into the biology/chemistry why a baby shouldn't be left to cry.

[Gemzooks]

but surely you're saying then that you shouldn't leave your baby with anyone else, as the baby doesn't know whether your reason is selfish, e.g. skiing, or not, e.g, gonig back to work.. yet another guilt trip!

[juuule]

I never left mine with anyone except dh unless it was absolutely necessary. Not much choice if you have to go to work. But if it wasn't necessary then I didn't do it.

[colacubes]

they are babies, since time began children have cried for their mothers, its a part of life, but surely you can not seriously be saying that a baby is to be left with only its father or mother due to anxiety.

In this case the child will always be anxious, if it is never left with another, how will it ever cope?

And Lucile you can not be seriously considering that an 8mnth old is crying every time for a valid reason! yes, a child can cry just for the sake of it ask any mother.

[skyatnight]

If a child is used to being with or near its mother 24/7, IMO it will panic and get stressed if the mother leaves it for any length of time. This would only be natural - like any baby animal calling for its mother to let her know where it is if it is lost. I don't think they are being manipulative (let's not get into a Gina Ford debate!), it's just instinctive.

I left my dd for an hour or two a couple of times when she was a few months old. I think she would have been ok with my sister because my sister held her from the beginning but I had to leave her with my Dad. Maybe it was because he was a man or wasn't that sure what to do with her but she cried non-stop the whole time I wasn't there, until she was shaking and hyperventilating. It was quite scary when I returned. It took a while to calm her down and she was looking up at me in a panic and patting my face to make sure it was me.

Another time, once she could crawl, she was trying to climb up the stairs for the first time because she assumed I was up there. I'm sure other people have had similar experiences.

Based on this, I would say there is no doubt that some babies can become very distressed when they are separated from their parents, particularly in the first few months. It must do them some harm at the time but, whether there is any long term damage caused, I'm not sure, possibly not? I suppose it is an argument to introduce various people to your child early on so that you have people to call on if you need a break. Some of us are not as lucky as others in this respect.

My dd also, like most little children, got upset when she first went to nursery. She was not happy! One of the nursery people took charge of her and dd spent the first few weeks attached to that person, rarely left her side or her lap! It's just natural and then they adapt and become more sociable.

When you go back to work, you will introduce your baby to the childcare people you have chosen and spend some time there together before you start work. A skiing holiday is difficult but you can still try to spend the first morning of the holiday at the childcare place with your baby and maybe she will pick up from you that the people are safe for her to be with?

We are always told that some stress in life is necessary and a good thing. As someone else has said, your dd will at least learn from it that, even though you went away, you always come back.

[hercules1]

I dont think there is anything wrong with leaving a child with someone she knows at all be that family, childcare etc but I wouldnt leave them with someone they'd never met without a settling in period.

[halogen]

Er, colacubes, I am a mother, too. My child is older than eight months. Yes, I'd say that when my daughter was that age, she only really cried for a reason. Even if you think your baby is crying for no reason, have you ever considered that there might be a reason? Maybe it's just that you don't know what it is.

[mummoomin]

I personally cant see that is can physically hurt her. I mean she cant do herself damage physically by crying.

However, it may be more of a case of can you have fun knowing she is upset. Do you think you could take a phone with you onto the slopes perhaps, and call after 10 mins or so and see how she is? You can always go back if she isnt calming down quickly?

I think maybe tag-teaming with dh might be a fab idea.

[mummoomin]

Oops just realised that childcare is provided in the chalet. Personally wouldnt leave a young baby with a carer you dont know. Are they registered? Childcare qualifications? I would myself be very uncomfortable with this..

[branflake81]

I suppose if the child is not used to being left then it will be upset when it is. Which is precisely why, in my opinion, babies should frequently be left with other carers (family members, babysitters) etc so they get used to it. They can't be with mummy all the time and it's best they are adaptable. My opinion, that's all.

[Flllightattendant]

Is colacubes a troll? Or possibly researching a paper by playing devils advocate?

'babies are innately selfish'

What a crock. Sorry to be rude but honestly.

[colacubes]

Oh dear lucile, i seem to have upset your sensebilities somewhat, I was responding to your comment, thats all as one does in a discussion but to respond again to the same comment as you have now made it a question. Of course there are reasons a child cries as already stated, but a child will also cry for the sake of it, as all mothers will know. I think thats covered the point now dont you, or will you continue to drag this "a child can just cry" thing out for all its worth.

The point that is of concern here is
poor Dragthings dilemma, unfortunatley there are thousands of books, and research that will show reasons for and against, but you have to do what you feel comfortable with. It is your dd and you know her best. Motherly instincts are better than any book, if you want to stay with her then that is whats right, but she will be fine if you leave her in the hands of a loved one or professional, as we have all had to do this at some point.

Please dont upset yourself by thinking that she is at harm, she is loved and cared for and that is the most important thing.

Maybe you could leave her for 10 mins whilst you waited in the other room, you could monitor from close by, asses how she is reacting, she may well be distracted if other children are around.

[colacubes]

Unfortunatley, the negative conatation is being taken from selfish, but yes babies are innatley selfish. This is not to be confused with an adults selfishness, a child is innocent, has no bad qualities, as in I'll eat this in a corner and not share, as we do as adults,a baby will demand time attention, food, love, not that that is wrong, but it is not taking into consideration, time of day, your needs, as it is not a sociable being yet. Maybe this is upsetting because of the negative conatation given to the word through adulthood, a baby will demand, surely this is something all mothers have experienced.

And no I am not a funny looking fella living under a bridge.

[lollipopmother]

I think I read it correctly when it said that the holiday is in June (or pos July) and the baby is now 8 months. Well that'll take her up to a year old so she may have grown out of it by then if you start practicing leaving her with friends now, ask them to come round and you just sit in another room for 10 mins etc.

[DualCycloneCod]

someone will link to that stupid carticle abtout he abby cryign in darkness i bet ya

[Anna8888]

Eight months is a difficult age for separation and yes, if your baby is upset to be left at this age, you should do your best not to leave her with someone she is not happy to be left with. At that age I could leave my daughter with my mother but not with anyone else.

[halogen]

I'm not dragging anything out! However, do see it like that if it makes you happy. What I am doing is disagreeing with you. As a mother, I didn't find that my child cried for no reason.

I also don't agree that just because a child isn't happy to be left at this age it means they'll never be capable of being left with someone else. Strangely enough, children grow and mature and are able to do things when a little older that they could never have coped with when they were tiny.

Also, I'm not called 'lucile'.

[colacubes]

Lucicle sorry for the name slip, just as typo! As for the rest, I am sorry but its just an opinion I gave on thursday night at 10.30, I dont see what else I can say. apart from, have a good weekend

[Dragthing]

Thanks everyone for your input. After reading it all I asked a friend who is a retired child psychologist (who actually knew Bowlby!). Her view is that the real risk of lasting damage is if a baby is left without individual care for months on end, or in frightening surroundings without the parents being there. She said that we are not going to do our DD any damage, but that it is going to be hard work as she is unusually strong-willed and has already 'got the upper hand a bit'.

She suggested trying an analogy of controlled crying (which we've used v successfully at night) - first put DD safe where she can see me but not get to me. Then try gradually, as I talk to her, moving out of sight. If she can associate hearing my voice with my coming back, she may feel safe enough to let me out of her sight. Once I have managed this, I can try being out of her sight for longer.

Friend also said that I need to accustom DD bit by bit to not getting an immediate reaction from me. 'Children need to feel secure and part of it is learning that being secure extends to things other than being picked up immediately they howl.'

We shall see...