to think -women, what´s gone so wrong?

[isaidlesbonotasbo]

Long time lurker, can´t sit on this one any longer.

Fifty years ago I and many other women fought for equality and womens rights. After a long struggle the western world conceded (OK, only up to a point, still a way to go), but things are so very different now.

Fifty years of books, magazines, tv, movies, pop music, education, the internet, showing us very different templates of how womens´ lives can be.
So why do I read here every day of young women who have chosen lazy, abusive, controlling, or selfish partners. Women who apparently must have such low self esteem that they think they deserve no better? Women from all parts of society.

And not only the pleas from the women who have just woken up to the situation they are in, but almost worse the everyday asides from seemingly contented women as part of other topics, which casually mention how OH, DH, DP ´won´t´or ´can`t´ do such and such, or relly´helps´, or spends endless hours and money on his own hobbies.

Sometimes there´s almost competetive banter re how ¨useless¨ their partners are, bless ´em!

Put aside the very real problems of leaving such relationships once stuck in them, why start them in the first place with all the choices available to us? We don´t have forced or compulsory marriage/partnership. Last time I looked, the Taliban were not in charge nor religious leaders all powerful.

And if the answer is that girls and women are socialised within their family of origin to feel worthless, let´s push the question back at their mothers and grandmothers - feminism did not start last week!

(and don´t get me started on who plays the biggest part in raising,
socialising and entitling these men from their early years....)

[betweenmarchandmay]

Because in the real world you're expected to get married and have babies.

[formerbabe]

I've long thought feminism was a con! Now we can work AND do all the housework and child rearing! Lucky lucky us!

[SaucyJack]

What about women's rights to choose what they do or don't think is a deal breaker in a partner?

[betweenmarchandmay]

YY former

[kaykayred]

On the serious side I would say because knowledge of feminism or even being a feminist doesn't protect you from abusive relationships. The concept of feminism hasn't somehow destroyed the psychological process by which someone gets drawn into an abusive relationship (for all the MRA - Yes, men can be in abusive relationships too, but abuse, and especially DV is overwhelmingly from men). I have known at least three strong, confident, very secure, very happy, very women's rights orientated people become stuck in abusive relationships. One a physically abusive relationship.

No-one ever goes on a date, gets the shit beaten out of them, or has someone scream in their face, then goes away to think "Wow, he's the one for me". It's a very long process of slowly, slowly chipping away at a person and making them feel dependent, or making them literally dependent on you.

It's a bit of a paradox to say "WE GAVE YOU FEMINISM, feminism yay, but it's also women's fault that they are in an abusive relationships".

I would definitely agree with you on the housework and children front though. Women overall still do by far the most domestic work. Their children grow up watching this, learn from their environment, then perpetuate the circle. Girls grow up believing that - on some level - it's more their responsibility so they don't have the "right" to push it onto their partners. Their partners grow up thinking - at least on some level - that they are entitled not to help in the home.

It's partly social pressure as well. Just because divorce doesn't make you a pariah, people still expect the woman to try and "keep the family together". People get genuinely snipey about marriage not being taken seriously enough these days, divorce rates, etc.

If someone said to you "I divorced my husband because he didn't help out enough at home" you can't seriously tell me that people wouldn't give them shit for that. "What! You broke up your family for something so PETTY?".

Sometimes you just don't know how a relationship will go either. You might do all the housework 50/50 when you're childfree, then after you are married with children, all of a sudden that goes out the window. Except now the woman has got children to look after and a social pressure to keep the family together "for the children".

By the way keeping a family together "for the children" is possibly one of the most idiotic, backward, naive concepts in existence.

[AnyFucker]

If you are a long time feminist you should understand that you are asking the wrong question

Ask men why they are controlling, lazy, abusive, selfish... don't tell women they have the responsibility for it

[isaidlesbonotasbo]

kaykay thank you for your considered reply.

I agree that abuse does not begin on the first date, and that once drawn in many complex faactors start to apply.

But I find it hard to understand why a confident young woman who is secure in her own skin and feels of value does not see through some of these men much sooner. And if the woman does not feel like that, then where has it come from. Presumably the family have considerable influence during the most formative years.

Why are serious abusers so overwhelminglymale? Why do they feel entitled not to share maintaining themselves, their kids, their environment? Do they not have any pride or self respect, or are they happy to be lazy?

In short, given that some major changes have ocurred in society over the last 50 years, why is this shit still going on?

I don´t believe it can all be the fault of ´the menz´, we can and must look at ourselves.

[isaidlesbonotasbo]

Anyfucker. I overwhelming agree that men have to take responsibility for their own behviour -- but shouldn´t we as well?

[wobblebobblehat]

Because, like a lot of things, we all set out with great intentions but life doesn't always work out how you plan.

I was born in the 70s. I thought I could get to the Boardroom. I ended up supporting the people in the Boardroom.

Read the relationship, employment and going back to work threads. Most of us in our 30s and 40s are struggling in some form or another and we are working harder than ever. I'm sorry to say it but sexism is still rife.

[theendoftheendoftheend]

*just so you don't get confused I don't mean its normal for men to become abusive when their partners are pregnant, only that in abusive relationships that is often when it starts. Anyway, whatever hiding this thread now for my own sanity!

[AnyFucker]

You deserved that, op

[skylark2]

I'd hope it's because the women who have a DH who considers himself to be half a partnership of equals, has always done so, and wouldn't dream of doing anything else, don't feel the need to start threads about it.

I'm with you - I am repeatedly taken aback by what some people put up with because they still consider it to be normal.

No, women aren't responsible for men's behaviour - but there are worse fates than being single. You don't have to marry / live with / have kids with a manchild.

[limegoldfinewine]

Honestly, I wish you hadn't focused so heavily on abusive relationships because it's going to put people's backs up, when there is a great question here.

Why is the progress so slow? I mean, people rave about "wifework" but the Second Shift was written over 40 years ago and said the same damn thing. Every few years another atlantic article or guardian article or whatever comes out saying the same thing!

I think it's because of generational messaging. It takes a substantial portion of your lifetime to truly "get" feminism. Not the theory but actually how to apply it in every day life. And by that time it's too late because you've already raised your kids/constructed your life based on your previous ideas. And best case scenario is they are raised a little bit more equal than you but oblivious until they hit the next (slightly higher) glass ceiling. But it's too late, because they've already had their kids and constructed their lives around their previous ideas.

So you get into an abusive relationship. Leave it. Understand about emotional abuse and patriarchy. But your kids were raised in it. So they look for Daddy v2. So then they get into an abusive relationship. They leave it and understand about emotional abuse and patriarchy. But their kids were raised in it, and so on.

Same with work. Each generation seems blase about the obstacles the prior generation faced and seems resistant to the idea of discrimination until it's happening to them! I'm gen Y and I've seen it in my age group.

What is the solution? I don't know. Teaching women about feminism and equality doesn't seem to protect them from abusive relationships and inequality. Maybe there is no solution. Maybe the solution is to forget about feminism and focus on inequality generally because that's more likely to change? Not sure.

[limegoldfinewine]

Also, is this thread going to be deleted? Which is the main thread?

[ElectraCute]

I do apologise for not doing your brand of feminism right by getting involved with a man who turned out to be an arse.

Perhaps you should just think yourself lucky that your life has been so incredibly simple so far?

You are skating remarkably close to making women responsible for men's behaviour.

[PetulaGordino]

feminism is not about berating women for men's failings

[creambun2014]

Unfortunately men like this can tell which women are vulnerable from a mile off. It is not an easily fixed problem.

[30somethingm]

I don't agree that men are holding women "to ransom" in relationships any more than the opposite - I'm sure there are roughly equivalent rates of nobbish-ness. I think on MN you're more likely to hear from women who have inconsiderate / abusive partners because most of the posters are women. On an equivalent male forum I would expect the opposite to be true.

A mate of mine holds a different view to OP and also to me. He thinks that most of his married male friends are a shadow of their former selves - they are talked over, interupted, have their ideas dismissed etc by their DW/DP.

I am sure that this is the case on occasion and also the reverse.

[UncrushedParsley]

You claim to understand that abuse 'does not start on a first date', but clearly have no real understanding of the psychology involved. Well documented that a lot of abuse starts during pregnancy, which rather shoots a lot of your, rather offensive, 'argument', (such as it is) out of the water.

[isaidlesbonotasbo]

electra- you know nothing of my life.

limegold. thank you. I am sure you are right about so much. I did come here with a genuine question, as I really do find it hard to understand some of the things I read on here.

Wobble, I do read the relationship threads, that is one of the reasons I am questioning why things are this way.

theendof. I am sorry if this has raised issues with you, but it is a genuine question. I understand, and have agreed, that abusers do not start out from the first date. I hope you have managed to turn your life around and are now safe and happy.

[invisiblecrown]

I've long thought feminism was a con! Now we can work AND do all the housework and child rearing! Lucky lucky us!

Surely you know that that is a load of bullshit. Who would advocate for that?

Its about equality in every aspect of life. Ie, men step up and share the housework and child rearing, just like we step up and share the financial burden.

[Davsmum]

Yes, there are still abusive and controlling men out there and yes women marry them not knowing until they have had their self esteem destroyed BUT there are just as many manipulative and controlling women out there too! I know women who make their husbands lives miserable with their tantrums and irrational jeolousy.

What concerns me more today is young children having access to.porn on line and young girls thinking they have to send boys pictures of their breasts or naked bodies and boys pressuring them to do so. It may also be about using women as sexual objects in music videos too.
I don't really know who is to 'blame' but women being in abusive marriages has nothing to do with women's lib failing. It's totally different issue.

[creambun2014]

Abusive men are highly attuned at picking vulnerable women and they know who to pick. The women have been trained since childhood and it can be easy to think when you haven't been brought up in that way to question women 'allow' it as it is so far removed from what you would do, but it is not that simple for the woman involved.

[ElectraCute]

That's right, I don't.

And yet you know nothing of the lives of millions of women. Doesn't stop you pronouncing on where they've all gone wrong though, does it?