to think that conforming to a specific gender

[DoubtfireDear]

isn't a bad thing? Or that "non conforming" isn't something to feel superior about?

DS is a 4 (nearly 5) year old boy. He likes trucks, cars, pirates and spiderman. He runs wild, makes lots of noise, and wears blue/red/green and denim. He likes digging in sand, waving sticks about and being what would be described as a "typical" boy.

He wouldn't let you near him with a pink t-shirt, dolly and pram and is far too fidgety and impatient to do crafty things. He has never been interested in princesses or "typical" girl stuff.

I haven't ever pushed him in a particular direction, I'd never say "you can't have that, it's for girls" it just seems to be built into him.

Sometimes on MN when people talk about having girls who roll about in muck and play with trucks, or boys who like to dress as a disney princess or want to have a dolls house for their birthday, they gush as if it's something to be extra proud of, as if it trumps the "normal" kids.

I'm a feminist. I just wish none of this shit mattered. He wouldn't let you near him with a pink t-shirt Why? Is pink gendered or is it just a colour? And your DS is just as influenced by gender as very other child. The reason I'm happy DD likes cars, fairies, trucks, mud, clothes, all sorts of colours is that I don't want her shoved in a tiny box at 3.

Yanbu, but then again do you believe all what's posted here. I've yet to meet a child other than the 'typical'.

I don't believe half of the DSs who supposedly go to school, soft play, shopping, wearing frocks without a second glance to be honest.

I am waiting for 'AIBU to tell DS he can't wear his frozen dress for his A2 Chemistry exam?'

It's the MN paradox that a sparkly pretty princess dress is only OK if a boy is wearing it.

It's not that one set of likes/dislikes is inherently better.

But if such choices were genuinely 'free' then you'd expect to find just as many boys as girls liking those things. That it really isn't like that is evidence of early reinforcement of gender roles. And that they are so deeply engrained that they're seen as normal.

But why do you think that those activities 'conform to a specific gender'? Children do all those things. Children run and dig, go wild etc.

My 3 boys are now teenagers, as young lads they liked playmobil, lego, guns, bows and arrows , reading and digging, they loved dressing up in batman, army type stuff.

Ds2 wanted a doll when he was about three so he had one for Christmas, he loved to cuddle it, feed it and carry it around in a sling whilst wearing his army dress up outfit.

I didn't push them one way or the other, I doubt any parent these days does either, where have you seen that?

I think it does matter, because as a child moves away from a baby into a little person - that process is about finding an identity and part of that identity is gender.

It's only part, of course, but I don't think it's as unimportant as MN seems to agree it is.

I don't think any way of parenting is superior.

I'm female and reading the description of your son...well he sounds very much like me as a child.

As long as children aren't prevented from doing things/enjoying things purely because of their gender, I don't see a problem.

For the record, I absolutely don't believe that little boys going to school in Princess dresses, aren't getting the piss ripped out of them either.

My DS was always a 'typical lad' but my DD was just as interested in 'boy's stuff' as 'girls' stuff. She would play with her brothers toys but he would not play with her toys unless he was torturing a doll or using her stuff as makeshift 'weapons'
My DS would happily have pink stuff until he was about 7 years old, when, I presume other boys were influencing him.
I think it is important to let them be the way they want to be without trying to influence either way.

That's sort of my point Terry I don't see ehy it does matter.

I have no idea why he wouldn't let me bear him with a pink t shirt, he just wouldn't. It's not something I've imposed on him (honestly). I'm happy he likes the things he does, I'd be equally happy if he did want to grow his hair and dress in pink, but I don't see either as a thing to get all superior about.

Sometimes on here you'd think that having a boy who wears fairy wings or enjoys pushing a pram makes them better than a boy who wears a spiderman outfit and pushes a truck around. It's not better, it's just different.

I absolutely agree with your last paragraph there OP

Depends where you live Worra and others. Here in hippy-land (population - thousands) I have seen three separate occasions of dress-wearing boys, not toddlers, out and about. Two at football. Also younger boys at preschool with the dress up box. No one gives a shiney shite here.

It's not doing the things traditionally associated with gender that is shit. It's not being able, through pressure, ridicule and advertising, to do anything else.

I did my dissertation on children's gender influences and there really is no typical boy/girl behaviour when you really look at children as many girls are not pink led and many boys display a nurturing side. Many of my preconceptions were challenged but my eyes were opened to how adults, not just parents, try to influence children due to their idea of what is appropriate gendered behaviour.

Meh, parents also feel superior when their children like olives.

Take it with a grain of salt.

You may not have imposed that on him Doubtfire but it's all around. DD liked whatever colour passed her goldfish brain then preschool hours and WHAM pink is great. This shit is all around them all the time.

The smug may come from people being glad they have 'gender-proofed' their child a little.

I once caught my DS (4) wearing fairy wings from the dressing up box!! It's sad that there taught to conform so young, but so long as it's not dangerous. Let them be,

YANBU.

It especially bugs me when people with daughters are smug about them not liking pink and preferring the stereotypical boy activities. It comes across as if they wouldn't be quite as proud of a daughter who likes pink and sparkles and glitter and shoes, and it's horrible.

Or when people seem especially pleased with a boy who dresses up in princess clothes and plays with dolls.

As if it makes them a superior forward thinking parent who actually had any control over what their child naturally enjoys.

This thing about it being children who enjoy certain things as if stereotypes came from nowhere is silly too. Anyone who works with children will be able to see that generally, stereotypes have come from fact. Of course there are plenty of exceptions to the rule, enough that the lines are very blurred, but on the whole, boys and girls do prefer different things, and that's fine by me.

Amen OP.

I have three daughters. The middle one is a proper "girlie"girl (takes a handbag to Tesco, yadda yadda) but she's no less individual or intelligent or funny than anybody else's more tomboyish daughters (she really isn't- stop kidding yourself- you know who you are.......)

I do genuinely find those who are vehemently anti gender stereotypes to be just as close-minded and damaging (and quite frankly dull) as the pink for girls, blue for boys brigade.

I've seen plenty of boys (including my own) wearing dresses etc, at the dressing up box.

But I have genuinely never seen a boy in the street/going to school/wherever in a dress.

And yet, I live in a busy London borough.

Free - I think the difference is between a child playing 'dress up' and just wearing items like fairy wings, tutus and princess dresses on daily normal activities.

I wouldn't let my daughter wear dressing up clothes to the supermarket though, so I certainly wouldn't let my son!

X post Worra

I remember reading a discussion about nail varnish.
Can a little boy wear pink nail varnish? Yes, cool, let's tear down gender stereotypes!
Can a little girl wear pink nail varnish? No way, let children be children, don't sexualise them too early!

Its all up to personal likes/dislikes of a particular individual.

I think, Doubtfire, that perhaps you're misinterpreting what people are so pleased about. They're not proud or smug that their particular child doesn't conform to damaging gender stereotypes, they're just excited that it doesn't seem to matter so much any more when children don't conform.

If your little boy fits neatly into the box that society had labelled "boy" and happens to have the genitalia to match, that's fine for you and for him.

But there are a great many children (I was one) who do not match the stereotypical box society has assigned them. Once upon a time we were squeezed into that box anyway. It is enormously damaging to be told that you're wrong just because you'd rather play with cars than dolls if you happened to own a vagina, or told "not to be sissy, that's for girls" if a boy likes pink glitter (and I've yet to meet a toddler of any gender who doesn't like pink and purple sparkles).

Do boys not grow up to be fathers? So why not encourage them to play with dolls? Do girls not grow up to own and drive cars? So why not encourage them to play with toy cars.

I have never seen anyone on MN posting in a way that seemed smug or superior that their child didn't fit in with gender stereotypes. Just people celebrating their child is free to express themselves in a way they were never allowed to.

Like it or not, you are not the only influence over your child's world view, and I don't believe for a minute that children's likes and dislikes are innate. I actively discourage gender stereotyping our house but that doesn't stop DD2 (6 yo) categorising everything as "for girls" or "for boys" and refusing to consider anything that isn't pink and covered in glitter because in her mind she is only "allowed" things that are "for girls". Marketing is everywhere and children gobble it up.

But you have imposed 'the pink thing' on him, through your actions. In the same was as I have imposed 'not going to school in a princess dress' on my ds by my actions - ie I haven't bought him any princess dresses and you haven't bought him any pink t-shirts.

Then, as they go out into the world, society reinforces that home-gendering.

Now I'm not saying that you or I have done anything wrong. I only have a boy, I don't particularly like princess dresses full stop, so me heading off to the Disney store to spend my hard-earned on a selection of princess dress-up would be try-hard to say the least.

But equally as parents many of the things we do encourage children to conform to gender and you can't get away from that. And that's not always a positive thing.