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Mass Immigration, scare mongering??

(317 Posts)
Flickstix Thu 24-Jan-13 10:09:24

Am I being unreasonable to think it is a problem or am I just falling prey to media propaganda? The whole EU debate seems to have highlighted it but I would like to understand it better.

lljkk Fri 25-Jan-13 07:55:43

You forget about the ageing population, too, mathanxiety, elderly "native" British population are a larger % than they have ever been in past. Tomorrow take away the UK immigrants* and their kiddies, the working age population trying to raise kids & fund pensions reduces sharply in next 3 decades.

*how far back do we go in establishing whether someone is immigrant or native? Do we get to chuck out Michael Portillo & Michael Howard, for instance? Might be so benefits to this idea after all... wink

FreudiansSlipper Fri 25-Jan-13 08:18:12

Enoch Powell gave his Rivers of Blood speech in 1968 no doubt Nigel Farage will give a similar speech very soon as he no longer can witter on about Europe so much as we shall get to vote and people will get sucked into the fear that those nasty immigrants only come here to take our homes, nobsand spoil our way of life

It has not happened since 1968 and it will not suddenly happen. That is not to say immigration is always handled well it is not but lets look at why some town have so many immigrants it's down to local business people taking advantage of them and also others not wanting to take on menial work

And as for the Australian system well maybe you need to look at the way the indigenous people are treated before looking at Australia as an example and the backward attitudes towards racism

alemci Fri 25-Jan-13 08:24:36

maths wouldn't the housing shortage improve if there were not so many people on the social/council housing waiting list? I understand your comment about the NHS

My thinking would be to sort out who is already here. Give priority on the housing lists to those who have been waiting a long time and have actually contributed to the treasury not people who have just arrived.

Get people back into employment and try and assess if we need any skilled migrants

I don't understand why we would need anymore people in this already overcrowded little Island.

Surely now there are enough younger people in the country to sort out the ageing population problem.

MousyMouse Fri 25-Jan-13 08:30:37

alemci you forget that many forriners are not entitled to housing benefit and/or council housing for a long time. and anyway, I would say their input might be beneficial to housing stock. in many of these countries the houses/flats are bigger, better insulated. it is quite a culture shock to many to see how small and often bad the housing stock here is.

MousyMouse Fri 25-Jan-13 08:32:18

and besides, they come here to work (and pay taxes) and not to sign off on benefits (at least that is true for most of immigrants). living on benefits they can do in their country of origin.

alemci Fri 25-Jan-13 08:38:52

yes but the economy is pretty stagnant Mousey and there are not many jobs so I don't think anymore people should come for the time being. Also maybe the Eastern Europeans already here could help sort out the housing as many of them are are skilled craftsmen. Or the indigenous builders.

They can only work within the budget they are given by the housing association/council or private developer. Also the government seem to be very pro energy saving housing these days.

Sallyingforth Fri 25-Jan-13 10:10:09

I would like to be optimistic about this but the new countries are much poorer than Poland was and have fewer educated and qualified people.
It really does look as if there will be a wave of families coming in who don't speak English, are not able to work and just want to be housed and fed.
I would love to be wrong but I'm seriously worried about this.

maisiejoe123 Fri 25-Jan-13 10:33:37

I live near a large town (Slough) and there are immense problems there. There are schools where English isnt the first language, shops where English isnt spoken and it has a growing Roma population.

There have been problems with groups of them going into local shops and distracting the shop keepers whilst goods are stolen to such an extent that one of the owners who runs a small independant which he runs himself is thinking of closing as when he sees one of the group stealing something or making a run for it he cannot leave his shop as the others are ready to steal something else. He has been threatened and the police he says are very nervous about doing very much about it as it is classed as 'shop lifting'.

Could someone enlighten me. When a large family from say Romania arrive next year with no skills and no visible means of support what happens to them?

Bakingnovice Fri 25-Jan-13 11:11:54

Integration is the key here. Any immigration will fail if the immigrants do not integrate. Where I live there is a huge problem with attitudes. The indigenous white population is not happy about the new immigration from Europe, the Asian families are more accepted as they are now 3rd to 4th generation. The new eastern Europeans are very very racist towards the large Asian population. Only last week I was speaking to a polish colleague and he was saying Romanians should never be allowed in as they aren't white but descendants of Indian gypsy travellers. The irony was lost on him. In my area these attitudes have created another vile layer of racism which my small town has taken decades to eradicate. I am surprised that there are people who have never been affected by immigration. Perhaps that is because immigrants tend to stay away from the richer areas?

maisiejoe123 Fri 25-Jan-13 11:22:09

Baking - I agree integration is key. Like ensuring that everyone here and who use our schools/hospitals (for free) learn English, who embrace our culture and abide by our rules. Learn the language before even coming. We are the softest touch with regard to immigration hence this country which is creaking being the most popular choice. Being unwilling to learn English and intergrate is something that the immigrants need to be willing to do (just like my parents who came to this country 60 years ago did!).

Of course if you live in the middle of the Cotswolds you are probably thinking -what immgration problems!

maisiejoe123 Fri 25-Jan-13 11:29:11

Just heard that the economy is shrinking even more. When is someone going to make a sensible decision about immigration. Nothing is impossible - we were told when we moved to a new area that the land opposite was Green Belt - it would never be touched! Well guess what. They removed the label (it took the council a number of years) and new houses were built.

Flickstix Fri 25-Jan-13 11:30:25

I've been thinking about this for the last few days and have come to the conclusion that I'm not bothered by mass immigration, as long as people integrate and contribute to society, in fact it can be a good thing but I haven't been personally affected by it so in a way it does make my opinion somewhat invalid.

I think that shouts of racism and bigotry when someone voices their concerns about how immigration is affecting their lives are just wrong, for some people their sense of culture, identity & community is very strong and to feel that they are losing/may lose that can be unsettling.

ConferencePear Fri 25-Jan-13 11:38:15

There is the bigger picture too.
We are already short of energy and so have to pay huge bills to keep warm and we're planning a huge wind farm in the middle of Ireland.
Our food is getting more expensive (and therefore bulked up with 'fillers' like horsemeat) and will this will continue while we build on good land and need to import more and more.
I just don't believe we should go on like this.

TooMuchRain Fri 25-Jan-13 11:52:06

for some people their sense of culture, identity & community is very strong and to feel that they are losing/may lose that can be unsettling.

Surely if it were this strong they wouldn't consider it so fragile that they couldn't maintain it in the presence of other cultures?

badguider Fri 25-Jan-13 11:56:52

There isn't a housing shortage everywhere, some areas are facing declining population - I think it's up to the government to provide the infrastructure that allows businesses to flourish away from the overcrowded cities and therefore making living in areas with surplus housing viable for working families.
The problem is that too high a proportion of our population is squeezed into the SE and westminster politicians despite supposedly representing constituencies across the UK don't seem to be able to see outside of London in terms of business and economics.

Flickstix Fri 25-Jan-13 12:00:17

TooMuchRain - I think it's less to do with other cultures joining their communities (immigration) and more to do with feeling marginalised and overwhelmed (mass immigration). I am forming my opinion on what others have said, not from personal experience.

BridgetBidet Fri 25-Jan-13 12:49:59

I'm really wondering what is going to happen with the Romanians/Bulgarians. It was terrible for my family when the Poles arrived as my husband works in construction and his wages were just decimated overnight. And he was not in a well paid job, it wasn't just plumbers pulling in £80,000 a year who were effected, people earning very modest wages lost them as if you are jobbing your wage changes from job to job so your wage is not static from month to month. Jobs which used to be well paid because they were dirty and unpleasant such as cement fixing suddenly became minimum wage because Poles would come in and do them for that. People say 'Oh the Brit's won't do these nasty jobs' but they DID, they just won't do them for poverty wages.

However there are hardly any Poles or Slovaks left on sites in the north. They have been undercut by crooked agencies who employ illegal Indians for even less than minimum wage so I'm not convinced that it will effect us when the Roma and Bulgarians come because I don't think they will be able to undercut the Indians.

The conditions the Indians live in are awful, they live in dirty flophouses, outhouses and garages which cost about a fiver a day without proper beds or in shared beds where they sleep in shifts. They travel to work in overcrowded vans doing 6 or even 8 hour round journeys with just time to to sleep for a few hours between travel and work, they have no family life and are thin because they don't have enough food but I'm sure you will get people saying that poor Brits should readjust their expectations and work for the same or else they're lazy disregarding the terrible conditions these people have to live in.

It's disgusting people have to live like this in the 21st century in a supposedly developed country.

Mosman Fri 25-Jan-13 13:25:35

And as for the Australian system well maybe you need to look at the way the indigenous people are treated before looking at Australia as an example and the backward attitudes towards racism

50 years ago maybe, these days the government bends over backwards to support, fund and attempt to educate. There are TV ad's about not drinking yourself into a stupor, not to drink in pregnancy etc. If you applied for a job qualified or not as an indigenous person you would get it and then the employer has to think about how to train you or to just give you the money and get somebody else to actually do the job - why more of them don't apply to be CEO's I don't know they'd be onto a winner - anyway as an employer you just wouldn't tell them they hadn't got the job no matter what. And then you wouldn't dare fire them.

expatinscotland Fri 25-Jan-13 13:29:02

Good post, Bridget.

Tailtwister Fri 25-Jan-13 13:44:23

The pressure on essential services and housing does worry me. We are a pretty small country and the economic climate is crippling atm. I also worry about the exploitation of immigrant workers. I know someone who renovates flats and he drives to somewhere where he knows people will be waiting for work (a street corner as far as I can work out), collects them in a van and pays cash in hand.

There are many who work in jobs that could be outsourced. No amount to reduction in immigration can protect my job. I have to compete with people working in India, for example. In fact my company has a lot of employees in India. It is a US company so does it mean I stole someone's job in the US? It's just how globalisation works.

ArtfulAardvark Fri 25-Jan-13 13:48:31

I think flip flop just gave us an example of how larger employers are shunning UK staff - is this legal?

I do think some blame MUST be taken by the larger employers who are pretty much EXPLOITING immigrant employees by paying lower wages.

As was pointed out on Question Time last week - crops DID NOT rot in the fields before we had access to this cheap labour - im guessing a higher wage had to be paid for the work though.

Am wondering if some blame needs to be landed at the feet of the larger supermarkets who insist on paying rock bottom prices for these crops too?

I DONT think we can keep this open door policy, if someone has a skill and something to offer then GREAT but we dont NEED more unskilled labour, lets encourage people off of benefit an into work. It needs to be made more profitable to work than to be on benefit.

Mosman Fri 25-Jan-13 13:55:51

It's always been profitable to go to work for able bodied men and women, single parents aside and even then it's profitable in the long term.
What we mean is it has to become uncomfortable not to work.

BridgetBidet Fri 25-Jan-13 14:05:23

It's not profitable for a lot of people to go to work Mosman, many times over the past few years my family would have been better off on full benefits e.g. getting our rent and council tax paid along with money in our hands.

Mosman Fri 25-Jan-13 14:14:54

As a couple raising children you would have been better off on benefits than working ?

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