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To wonder why so many women are in denial about misogyny?(807 Posts)
What do they get out of insisting that men are subject to exactly the same level of discrimination and abuse as women? That Mary Beard, for example, would have been treated in the same way if she had been a man?
I just don't get it.
Just Ariel is fine
Oh we fight about it obviously. He doesn't just roll over about things like "How is it my fault if I can tolerate more mess than you?" which is often mentioned on feminism threads.
Daddilion it's impossible to answer. I mean, if someone asked you if you thought racists were common, what would you say? I think racists are too common, but most people aren't racist. However, people who aren't truly racist can say pretty racist things, on occasion. I think it's the same with misogyny.
A misogynist resents women. I know guys who say sexist things just because they inhabit a culture which enables that, so they don't notice or think about it, or how it actually contributes to a world which is inherently pretty hostile to women, but aren't, actually, misogynist themselves. They just reflect the culture they live in.
Honestly, I used to think very few men were misogynist. Now, I think many more were than I had any idea, because the internet's anonymity means they can express it openly with real ease and confidence. I do remember an ex had porn (playboy or penthouse letters was it?) and I looked at it and was really shocked by how the stories were so nasty about women. And it made me wonder if it was that the men who worked for the magazine had issues with women, or, more scarily, that that was what sold, so what most men thought. I still don't know the answer to that question.
I'm shielded to a large extent, because I'm married to the nicest man in the world (no, really, he is - we were friends first) and our friends are obviously good people, too. At least they are around us - I suppose one could be capable of saying stuff like that online, but I doubt it. But that's people we choose to be around.
Honestly, I don't know. I think true, women-hating misogynists are likely relatively rare, but by the same token, they aren't as rare as all that. There are too many DV cases, too many misogynist postings, too many beaten and abused prostitutes, for a tiny group to be responsible. And I think there are a lot of people who aren't misogynist themselves, as such, but who just accept the world as it is and use the language and express the ideas of misogyny. Do I think all ice hockey fans, mentioned before, are misogynists? No. I think they're just guys who don't see misogynist comments as bad.
It's interesting - if you put points of view on other forums that would be considered feminist, you can pretty much guarantee someone will ridicule it and come up with some joke about women or a stereotype. They don't argue the point made - but derail it with some inane or sexist comment.
Misogyny or just sexism?
I mean feminist points of view - not feminist forums.
I don't think you can know, a lot of the time. I mean, if there's real anger or venom there, I'd think misogyny. On the other end of the spectrum, you often see comments that seem indicative of the person being essentially harmless, and just clueless. But a lot of the time, the reaction falls in the middle, so you've no way to tell. Sexism is just so much more accepted than racism is. Someone in the Guardian gave an example a couple of days ago of a tweet that was as racist as Austin Mitchell's were sexist, and it was actually jaw-dropping. Yet when he was being misogynist (because yeah, his tweets really were, on reflection) it didn't seem as bad to me. Because feminist as I am, I'm also a product of my culture, and casual sexism is very commonplace, and unchallenged, in a way racism just isn't anymore, thankfully. So I was way more shocked by overt racism.
I also think it depends a lot on the subject matter. The boots/driving thing, and there's a far higher chance someone is just a bit clueless. Misogyny on a thread or article about Steubenville, and they're either a misogynist or a troll.
I think my favourite is when a guy says something deeply sexist, and then qualifies it with an, "I love women". It's the, "I'm not sexist. I love the little ladies!" argument.
"I think my favourite is when a guy says something deeply sexist, and then qualifies it with an, "I love women". It's the, "I'm not sexist. I love the little ladies!" argument."
There's a Yes, Minister quote where Sir Humphrey denies being sexist then qualifies it with, "some of my best friends are women... my wife even!"
"Because feminist as I am, I'm also a product of my culture, and casual sexism is very commonplace, and unchallenged, in a way racism just isn't anymore, thankfully. So I was way more shocked by overt racism."
YY to that.
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