To think that there should be prosecutions over Hillsborough(217 Posts)
Even after 23 years
This article in the Mail claims that under the new secret justice bill things like Hillsborough could be covered up
"The shocking outcome of the recent Hillsborough Inquiry, bringing justice at last to 97 families? If similar circumstances were to arise again, it is likely that justice would never be delivered: if the families tried to sue, alleging a bungled police operation and a subsequent cover-up, the Bill would give the authorities the ability to keep the truth concealed."
I read some too - the original witness statements are utterly harrowing. I had to stop I was crying so hard.
I've just read some of the accounts of the survivors and it has made me feel sick. Those poor people. The terror and agony they must have felt.
And then to be treated like shit as they were trying to save their own lives and that of those around them? Astounding. They must have felt like they were part of a living nightmare.
And then they got vilified for even being there.
for Guineapig and anyone else who thinks 'I was there, I have the right to blame the fans despite all the evidence the dead were innocent' Perhaps a reputable medical professor who happened to be there as a junior doc on a day off is enough of an independent authority figure to persuade you
Just as a general FYI
I am not denying the cupability of the police or am I defending the cover up that followed.
"It was a well-documented bottleneck and at matches with capacity attendance presented and foreseeable risk of crushing and injury."
the area was known about for years the first crushing incident was 1981 (I think) yet 8 years later and after three separate incidents it had not been sorted out. Yet the FA decided to hold the match at a stadium that was known to have problems when at capacity.
It was an incident waiting to happen.
Not denying that luck may have had a part to play to qualify my statement I've quoted directly from the report summary.
"27. The confined outer concourse area serving the Leppings Lane turnstiles accommodated the entire Liverpool crowd, heading towards three discrete areas within the stadium (North Stand; West Stand; Leppings Lane terrace). It was a well-documented bottleneck and at matches with capacity attendance presented and foreseeable risk of crushing and injury.
28. From statements provided to the Panel, at previous FA Cup semi-finals SYP managed congestion in the outer concourse area and its approaches by filtering the crowd and checking tickets on the roads leading to the ground. This did not happen in 1989. The former SYP match commander, Chief Superintendent Brian Mole,denied that filtering the crowds approach to the turnstiles had been previously adopted as police practice."
Also a bit further on
"33. From the SYP statements disclosed to the Panel it is evident that SWFC stewards and SYP offers with experience of managing the crowd on the Leppings Lane
terrace had adopted the practice of redirecting fans to side pens when the central
pens were estimated to be full. At semi-final matches in 1987 and in 1988 the
gates at the entrance to the tunnel opposite the turnstiles and leading into the
central pens were closed temporarily by police officers who redirected fans to the side pens. In 1988 many fans in the central pens experienced crushing and minor injuries. Neither the gate closures nor the crushing were recorded in debriefing notes."
The report in full is here if anyone wants to read it.
"that due to better crowd management did not end in tragedy."
How do you know that it was better crowd control and not just luck?
As someone said on the other thread, a lot of people have probably convinced themselves that the "official" story told back then was true, especially those involved who otherwise have those 96 deaths on their concience...
Must be much easier to insist that the supporters must have done something wrong, than admit that you personally could have helped and didnt.
I lived near Hillsborough for a while about a decade ago - the stuff Guineapig is saying was repeated to me time and time again by perfectly rational people.
I challenged it then but I don't think it made any difference. It's repeated as fact.
Guineapig do you realise that there were similiar incidents that happened at the Leppings Lane end of Hillsborough in 1981, 1987 and 1988 that due to better crowd management did not end in tragedy.
The design of the terraces/ entrance was clearly not fit for purpose especially when the ground was sold out at full capacity.
I'm really sorry that you or anyone had to go through such a traumatic event but don't blame innocents who've suffered just as much as you did, and in many cases much, much more.
guineapig can I ask what your role was that day?
Can I ask how you could see what was happening outside the ground and inside the first hand?
Also can you please explain why the crushing to death of fans and children wasn't a weekly occurrence at football grounds up and down the country back then. After all having a drink before the match go hand in hand.
FFS guineapiglet, it doesn't matter if the fans were drunk or not. The police fucked up, big time, but instead of holding their hands up and admit they made mistakes, they lied. They tried to cover their arses and had people believe it was the fans fault.
There were people, children, killed, if the police had done their jobs properly it wouldn't have happened.
Yes, it might have kicked off had they shut the gates but 96 innocent people would not be dead, killed in the most horrific way.
Don't try blaming people who had a few drinks before a game, which is perfectly legal last time I looked, when it was the people in charge who failed them so severley.
The Hillsborough Report combed through all the eye witness statements, all the original police statement, all the CCTV footage, all the press coverage and all subsequent investigation materials. They say you account is a delibrate, malicious fabrication. You are a liar.
Thanks for your charming message. I am not stirring up trouble, I was there, I saw things, with others, as they were and for what its worth, it was a terrible, fatal combination of the facts I described earlier. Having attended many matches during the 80s, the grounds then were deadly. I took flowers to the ground for days, and I didnt piss on anyone, as you so eloquently describe it . Nobody deserved to die. Full Stop.
Fuck off with your malicious shit stirring guineapiglet. The Hillsborough report is quite clear, ALCOHOL PLAYED NO PART WHATSOEVER IN THIS TRAGEDY. THE FANS WERE COMPLETELY INNOCENT OF ANY WRONG DOING. RESPONSIBILITY LIES SOLELY WITH THE AUTHORITIES. Stop pissing on the victims.
What would have happened if the police HAD denied them all access to the ground after 3pm when many( and not just Liverpool supporters) were clearly over the top- probably a riot?
Whatever may have happened, I highly doubt 96 people would have died.
Just to say, I have been a football fan for over 40 years, I have had season tickets and stood on terraces and have been to have the odd pint in the pub on many occasions before a match. This was not a bit intimidating, it was bloody petrifying. -When I mentioned responsibility, it was to show that this was a combination of the wrong things, bad crowd control, archaic stands, overcrowding, lack of control etc etc but also the bald fact that when you combine alcohol and crowds, the effect can be devestating, which on this occasion, it tragically was. Are we saying that pissed up crowds have NO responsibility for their actions? What would have happened if the police HAD denied them all access to the ground after 3pm when many( and not just Liverpool supporters) were clearly over the top- probably a riot?
Ive never had the guts to go back to a match after this, and I still love football - I went to many memorial services and helped many of those directly and indirectly affected - it was a terrible, terrible time and I really hope the families get the justice for their loved ones which they so deserve.
As we walk from the pub to watch Sunderland play Liverpool tomorrow , I will be thankful that : we are not going through a giant gate, we are not in a crushed standing stand and we are not caged in like animals. I hope my home city does all the Liverpool fans proud.
guineapig I am appalled. Crowds generally can be a bit scary. I don't like them and I've been at concerts, in London for the millennium and so on. I understand if you were waiting about in the midst of it it might have been a bit intimidating. But you can't ban them from having a drink at an event.
How does having a drink make them responsible I am actually sickened that you were there, saw the affect on the families and are still trying to place responsibility - and you actually used that word - on the football fans for the death of the 96.
I understand you went through something horrible yourself, but if you read the reports you would see the whole thing was mismanaged. A few football fans having a drink and being eager to get to the game is absolutely normal.
It should be dealt with via crowd control, not with blindly directing them all into one pen.
As for the person above trying to slag off the entire city of Liverpool, I have no words. I am from Merseyside, and although most people who know me would either not guess that, or my relatives probably think I've moved on and don't care any more, the city is very much still in my heart. I was there when Liverpool was celebrating winning the Treble in 2001 I think, and the community feeling was amazing. It's a city that knows joy, and it also knows how to fight for justice when tragedy happens.
If you don't like it, get over yourself and move on. Don't rubbish people grieving for a tragedy.
YANBU. This was the worst of a series of 1980s events that were dreadfully misrepresented by
lying b#stards press and police. Worst because people died, I mean. Some day perhaps the general public will realise they were fed similar lies about other events too... The Poll Tax 'riots' for instance, were in fact (according to my own eyes and a dozen friends of mine who were actually there) crowds of legal demonstrators defending themselves and others against actual attack by police on horseback and in vehicles. But I'll shut up about that now, because I don't want to hijack. Today is about Hillsborough. Now we know some of the truth, I hope justice follows.
Good point re Stephan Lawrence MrsTerry.
I don't know... the families felt pretty persecuted.
I've been caught out there by the cursed auto correct. For persecutions, please read prosecutions!
Prosecutions are not just for the families. We have a better Police Force now because they were taken to task for the institutional racism, for the treatment of rape victims, for the stuff that they did because they thought they would never be prosecuted.
Prosecutions send the message that if you do something unconscionable, you will be punished even if it takes 25 years. So, a young Police Officer or journalist or whatever, knows that the choices they make will stay with them, forever. We might end up with a better system because of it. If we do, I say it's thanks to the families who won't give up. After all, we have a better Court system thanks to Stephen Lawrence.
I don't think they should ever drop it. I've seen that criticism many times though. And agree - persecutions need to follow, otherwise there is no justice.
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