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AIBU?

to be utterly shocked at the attitudes to rape expressed on BBC 2 today?

183 replies

WriterofDreams · 10/05/2011 14:42

Today, Jeremy Vine discussed the "slut walk" protests organised by feminist groups in response to the comment made by a Canadian police officer who told a group of lawyers that women should avoid dressing like sluts to help prevent rape. He spoke to the editor of "The F word" who unfortunately didn't give a very good argument IMO and failed to make the point that blaming the victim of any crime is just plain wrong. What really shocked me though were the views expressed by listeners which for the most part centred around the idea that scantily clad women are asking to be raped. One man actually said it was men's biological urge to have sex and women are exciting that by dressing like "sluts" and so they basically deserve what they get.

Frankly the whole thing made me sick. I was abused as a child so I know how much a victim tends to blame themselves for what happened. To tout this point of view is only to increase the suffering of victims IMO and does nothing to actually help decrease rape seeing as rape is very very rarely the "down a dark alley" scenario so beloved by many but is more often committed by friends, relatives and lovers who couldn't give a toss what their victim is wearing.

AIBU to think focusing on what women is wearing is basically blaming women for rape and in fact totally pointless anyway as there is no proof whatsoever that scantily clad women tend to get raped more often?

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TeacupTempest · 10/05/2011 14:52

YANBU

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florencedougal · 10/05/2011 14:52

like someone said, you are perfectably able to walk through Central Park at midnight with dollar bills hanging from you, but dont be surprised when something untoward happens

its called common sense and personal responsibility

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OldLadyKnowsNothing · 10/05/2011 14:54

Women (and men) have been raped by a stranger when they're in their own beds. Is that being provocative too?

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dollius · 10/05/2011 14:55

Personal responsibility for the actions of a rapist?? Not sure what you're saying there Florence...

To the OP - YANBU in the slightest

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silverfrog · 10/05/2011 14:56

I only heard a small part of it (thankfully - what I did hear was enough to make me Angry)

the caller who said that men were only acting on thousand's of years of biological instinct, and of course if women dress like that then they can't expect men to ignore their instinct made me want to be sick, actually.

he read out a whole string of similar emails/texts/responses, just in the 5 minutes I had the radio on.

what the hell is the world coming to?

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donnie · 10/05/2011 14:56

oh it's so nice and simple in your little world florencedougal. I suppose you think any female who suffers rape and was not wearing a full bur'qua deserved it, eh?

You are right up their with Jezza Vine.

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Ealingkate · 10/05/2011 14:57

florencedougal who said that about the dollar bills?? I'm intrigued because it sounds like the sort of claptrap that was being spouted on R2.

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Nancy66 · 10/05/2011 14:57

Blaming the victim is never acceptable - but having looked at the pictures today - women parading through the streets with the word 'SLUT' written on their breasts....not sure this is the answer.

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millie30 · 10/05/2011 14:58

YANBU. And Florence, rapists do not rape because they are sexually excited by women in skimpy clothes, they rape to yield power and control over their victim. Suggesting that women should take personal responsibility for the actions of a violent criminal is disgusting.

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northernrock · 10/05/2011 14:58

Yeah, it's a bit like saying that little kids who splash naked in a paddling pool are just asking to be molested because there might be a paedo nearby who just can't resist his urges.
Utter shite. YANBU.

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donnie · 10/05/2011 14:59

florence is clearly a male troll posing as someone else. Fuckin saddo.

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Ealingkate · 10/05/2011 15:01

Would the same ever be said for male victims of rape??
Well, what was he wearing?? Shorts and a tight T-shirt, that's just asking for a vicious sexual attack.

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RamblingRosa · 10/05/2011 15:02

YANBU OP. I didn't hear it but sadly it's a commonly expressed view that the victims of sexual violence could have prevented it by dressing differently/not drinking/not being out late at night. Really depressing that we haven't moved on from blaming the victim to blaming the perpetrator :(

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SherbetDibDab · 10/05/2011 15:02

Did the programme include any comments from sane people.

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slavewife · 10/05/2011 15:06

We live in a society, where crime is in most street corners, even if that's rape, we take responsibility to lock our doors at night, to hold our handbags close, and inside belongings out of sight, the same should be said for our bodies, if you're going to dress provocatively, expect unwanted attention. However nothing is excusable when it comes to rape, its wrong, but yes, I do think, as a woman, we have a responsibility to keep yourself safe, and unfortunately we live in a age, where no means yes to some rapists/attacker's.

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meditrina · 10/05/2011 15:10

Florence is mistaken in assuming that rape is a crime of lust, not of violence.

Personal responsibility does have a place - in the same way that burglary is wrong so you lock your door; or mugging is wrong, so you don't flash expensive personal items. And it is also prudent to avoid looking like victim and to be able to fight back (so I always think shoes you can't run in are a bad idea when you're alone). This is standard stuff on self-defence courses.

But the idea that clothing provokes uncontrollable sexual desires is just rubbish, as is the idea that stranger rape is the only form worth discussing.

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RamblingRosa · 10/05/2011 15:12

But slavewife what you're saying means that the victim must take responsiblity for the actions of the criminal.

Rape isn't about attraction or about the attractiveness of the victim. It's about power and violence. Elderly ladies get raped in their own homes. Young girls get raped in their school uniforms in broad daylight. I think that what you're saying perpetuates a dangerous myth that somehow women get raped because they're too attractive or because they haven't taken enough care to hide their sexual attractiveness from predatory men.

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RunnerHasbeen · 10/05/2011 15:17

I think you will have to put up direct quotes as it is hard to say whether using explanatory and blaming phrases interchangeably is their, or your, being unreasonable. There is also a huge difference between population level risks and applying the logic to an individual. I do sympathise as I think this error is often made in courts of law (or exploited as they know some jurors will think like this) but people should be allowed to analyse risk without people constantly misinterpreting it. That drunk women as a group are probably at more risk than an equivalent group of sober women should not automatically assign any blame to the women, but because everyone jumps to that conclusion we perhaps are not able to extrapolate anything from this risk and put in place real safeguards (safe ways to get drunk people home, for example).

If they said: "women who are out late in skimpy clothes are at higher risk that women staying home in their PJs" and you heard that as blame, then I'm afraid I think you are the one being unreasonable as you are making the jump from explanation to blame. It sounds as if the callers were quite happy to make that jump though and as for the biological urge argument, no unreasonableness on your part there, that is vile.

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WriterofDreams · 10/05/2011 15:21

Comparing rape with theft makes my stomach turn. It suggests that a woman is a commodity who must be hidden so that people don't crave her too much. Men can quite happily walk around shirtless but women must cover up because rabid men can't possibly contain themselves?? What bollocks.

Also, as I said, there is absolutely no proof whatsoever that women dressing modestly prevents rape - otherwise countries that insist on burqas and the like would have low levels of rape, and that's definitely not the case.

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silverfrog · 10/05/2011 15:21

you can listen again on iplayer - it was on Jeremy Vine, between 12.30ish and 1pm.

another caller (I really was only listening for 5 minutes, honestly!) likened it to being burgled if you left oyur house unlocked, along the lines of "if I went out and left my front door open, I would expect all manner of trouble; if you go out dressed like this, you should expect the same"

there was absolutely no question, for any of the callers quoted in the 5 mins I was listening, that men were in any way to blame for raping women - it was all the women's fault for going out drinking, dressed scantily, and makig it easy for men to give in to their biological urges Hmm

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WriterofDreams · 10/05/2011 15:25

I see what you're saying Runner. The real issue with it all was that the police officer advised women "not to dress like sluts." The use of the word "slut" here is really telling - it suggests that the scantily clad woman has low morals and therefore is asking to be raped. Also seeing as the vast majority of rapes take place in a building, either in the victim's own home, or at a house party or a date's house, I would argue that the idea that a woman out alone is more at risk than the woman in a house isn't actually held up by the facts.

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WriterofDreams · 10/05/2011 15:28

I agree silverfrog - throughout the programme the focus was entirely on women and how their actions lead to rape. There was absolutely no discussion about the perpetrators and what we can do to prevent them from committing this awful crime without expecting women to curtail their lives to suit them. The only comment relating to men was that horrendous "biological urges" one which basically said men can't help raping women so women must get out of the way or face the consequences.

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meditrina · 10/05/2011 15:29

Writerofdreams: I mentioned theft solely as an example of how there is a need to take precautions against crime. I'm not blaming or commodifying the victim; I'm simply pointing put that in a society where criminals exist, measures against crime are prudent. Please note that the only items of clothing I specified were those that left one unable to run. This is a basic self-defence point, applicable to other crimes such as mugging and attempted abduction. The rest of my post should make it clear that I have no time for the "need to dress modestly" rubbish (veteran of "fight to reclaim the night" protests of the 1980s).

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WriterofDreams · 10/05/2011 15:30

There are so many campaigns advising women on how to avoid rape, why are there none teaching thick men what consent means?

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WriterofDreams · 10/05/2011 15:33

Sorry meditrina, I wasn't talking about your post specifically, more about the comments on the programme likening dressing scantily to leaving the front door of a house open. That analogy makes out that the woman is just an orifice waiting to be entered, that if "the door is open" one is being asked to go in. No one seems to spot the fact that a house can't say no, while a woman, being an actual person, can. A house with a door open is just a building, a woman wearing few clothes is a human being - surely that's an important distinction?

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