Is it my fault and what can I do?

[flyingspaghettimonster]

This is hard to write and also long, sorry.

I had terrible PND both before and after my second child was born - that is hard to say, but important. I felt he was a parasite, not a baby inside me - because I was pregnant I had to stay in England for four months until he arrived while my husband was studying in the States and starting our new life alone, and it was a horrible, lonely time for me. I got depressed and then as soon as he was born, although I was totally able to care for him as I did my daughter, I didn't feel any attachment - if he cried I felt no pang like I did with her, just dealt with him like a robot. Whilst I do love him, now, I still don't feel the same towards him as to my daughter and younger son. It is hard, feeling like this, and I realised recently that I have absolutely no memories of him from earlier than about age 3... can't remember first steps, smiles, potty training, weaning, anything. People tell me things about that time and reminisce and I find myself thinking 'really? I don't remember that'. It is really sad.

he is now 5 and makes being his mummy so hard. I try to treat him the same as the other two kids, if anything I err on the side of giving him more than them - more gifts, more of his own way, because I always feel guilty for feeling less emotionally attached to him (I never bonded with him and that is so upsetting to me - I am always terrified he will realise so try to hide it with 'I love you's, gifts. Sometimes I hug him and am really aware how forced it is for me to make the concious decision to hug him, in comparison with the millions of hugs and kisses the baby gets a day that are as natural as breathing :-(

I have to add, my husband does not have this problem with him at all - so he gets lots of affection and hugs from his Dad, and I am not a naturally huggy person so don't hug my daughter more than him either - only the baby gets smothered in love and the kids seem fine with that - they adore each other.

My problem is, he is so hard to love! He is a grouchy, pessimistic, whiny boy. He has a sweet life; we go to fun places all the time, he gets to play computer games and go to the local theme park or zoo at weekends, meals out, play dates... yet he is never truly happy. Every day involves whinging from morning till evening. Why can't he have/get/wear/do... it is sometimes ringing in my ears hours after he goes to bed, because it is so relentless. A day could involve a trip to the zoo, lunch at macdonalds, playing his computer game and watching a movie... he would still whine because maybe he didn't get a gift, or maybe he didn't get as long as he wanted on his game etc etc... He can never just be content and realise he was given a good day. If we go to the theme park, we didn't go on his favourite ride as many times as he wanted, or he didn't get an ice cream, or we left too early...

People tell me it is a stage, but he is 5 now and it has been years. He's the middle child so I wonder if he is playing up to get more attention - but we really try hard to give him attention with the others. I guess he feels like the bad kid because his older sister is perfect all the time - she is an honour roll, grade A student who thrives on being a goody-goody, and his little brother is the happiest little boy ever, who literally jumps up and down saying ''appy! 'appy!' because he thinks life is so good. I just feel so sad that middley is going through life feeling hard done by when I do everything I can to make the kids happy. The only thing I don't do is give into him whining for a present all the time - he only gets something if he has been good and filled his sticker chart for that week. Even his teachers tell me constantly that he is causing trouble, constantly nagging to be allowed to go to the other kids' houses to play, even though he has been told and told that he can't ask and it is rude.


I guess I know it is largely my fault he is like this. I guess I just want to know what to do about it. We have started sticker chart regimes, and I opened up to his school counsellor after a particularly horrific phone call where the head teacher rang me and said my lovely son had been arguing with a classmate about whether he could go to their sleepover, and when they were teasing him/rejecting him he said 'well then I will get a real gun and shoot you in the face' - this horrified me as we are totally anti-violence and he doesn't watch violent video games or programmes... I don't even know where he got that idea from :-(

Sorry for the long OP. Advice would be good, gentle advice would be even better. I feel shit enough already for not loving him enough.

[FabbyChic]

I think he has always sensed you haven't bonded with him, and the way he behaves is a cry out for the attention.

YOu say you do give it to him, but from the sounds of it it is grudgingly because you feel guilty.

The way he is is because of the way you have nurtured him.

[flyingspaghettimonster]

Another thing, whilst I am ranting, that makes me feel more shit - he recently made friends with a little boy in his class, and after I had the boy for a few playdates, the mother invited middley over in return. She is Italian and a perfect mother. After one play date she seemed to have a closer relationship with my son than I did - he runs and hugs her and she scoops him in her arms and smothers him in kisses as though he were her own. She tells him he can come to her house every day, whenever he wants, he is always welcome... whilst I have begged her not to do this as it makes me the bad guy for saying no, not every night, once a week is enough... he clearly adores this woman and wishes she was his mum and that makes me feel even worse. He slept over there last night for the first time and it was awful, the feeling of relief that he was gone and I could spend a few hours with just the happy kids, and the knowledge that he was also happier away from us :-( I went to pick him up and she had washed all his clothes, bathed him (he hates baths and is usually a struggle to wash), cut his hair and made homemade pizzas with him because he is a fussy eater so wouldn't eat any of her cooking... in one night she probably made him realise what a mother should be and how flawed I am :-(

[laInfanta]

I don't agree with Fabby. A lot of people's personalities is just down to luck and the way they are. How else do you explain the millions of siblings brought up the same who are so different?

Hopefully he will grow out of it and you will learn to love him more. If not, well, not everything can be perfect and not everyone loves their children the same. You are giving him a good life, that's all you can do. Hopefully he can get more from your DH, as you say they have a better relationship

[laInfanta]

And he only likes that woman because she is a new face who gives him everything he wants and never says no!

[BlueAmy]

I think your DS is probably picking up on how you feel. :(

Have you ever had counselling for the way things have been for you? I think you really need to speak to someone, it's a sad situation and it won't get better if you just try to maintain the status quo.

I feel for you, I really do. You're not a shit person, so please don't think that, but you do need to do something about this.

[flyingspaghettimonster]

it isn't grudging - that's not quite right - more like I have to remember and think to do it, because the natural urge is not there. That is the same with my daughter, though - I am uncomfortable with hugging either of them - I had some abuse in my own childhood that definitely affected my physical relationships and likely the unhuggy nature I have stems from that... it is actually weird for me to be huggy with the little one, I often worry that will stop soon as I think hugging the other two stopped being natural when they became toddlers... :-(

[flyingspaghettimonster]

No, I haven't had counselling and as we are currently in the States, I can't afford it. I certainly can't get it put on my medical history and risk the insurance going up even more.

[GKlimt]

Obtain a CAMHS referral from your GP for attachment therapy - this very sad situation need not continue.

[thumbwitch]

Have you had any help with this at all? You need some. Children do pick up on feelings, and your DS may unconsciously have noticed your "rejection" (for want of a better word). It is possible to still bond with him - but you might need some external help with it. You obviously do love him, and care about him - but you need to nip this in the bud now before it gets any worse or goes on any longer.

Stop looking at him as a problem - stop thinking about his negative attributes - look for the positiives in him and focus on them. And stop spoiling him with material alternatives to your love and attention. Deep down he knows what you're doing.

Have you tried having any one-to-one time with him? Middle children often miss out on this, so it might be nice for both of you if you could find something to do, just the two of you, that you would both enjoy.

I think you are very aware of your situation but a bit stuck to know what to do - so please try and get some help before this spirals any further downwards. Use your self-awareness to advantage here - not to beat yourself up and tell yourself it's hopeless.

[thumbwitch]

Sorry, xposted with you. How much longer will you be in the USA? You need to address this sooner rather than later, the longer you leave it the harder it will become.

[GKlimt]

Sorry x-post. And see you live in the US. Do your children have health insurance?

[EvenLessNarkyPuffin]

Firstly I'd ask MNHQ to move this thread to somewhere else to avoid unhelpful criticism. Then I'd get some proper help offline. You need to work out your feelings and you need to find a way to change your interactions with him. Your DS has had 5 years of learning to behave this way. It will take time to fix.

[AgentZigzag]

I'm sorry you're having such a hard time, and know you're looking at him through the framework of knowing you don't feel the same with him as you do with your other two, but the behaviour you describe sounds to me like typical behaviour from a 5 YO.

Every bit of him you look at you seem to be applying what you know about the way you feel to it.

But looking at what you've said without that knowledge would just make for a normal day in my eyes.

I'm sure he doesn't want his friends mum to be his mum, you're his mum! I've seen an italian mum in action and they're incredibly focused on children, please try not to turn her warmth for your son into a stick to beat yourself with.

In saying you're flawed you're saying there's some template of parenthood which is right and true, and that is just not the case.

The amount of effort you've put in to making your DS feel loved and wanted says to me that he is.

You are who you are and children accept that in a parent.

[LDNmummy]

Did you get counselling for you PND? And if you did, do you think it was enough?

From what you have written, I don't think you are over it yet (but I am an outsider so only going on what is here). You seem to still be lacking any ability to actually bond with him properly or to push past your insecurities about was has happened in the past to free yourself to bond with him properly.

Children are so much more intuitive than they are given credit for and even if you do not realise it, he is probably very aware that there is something fundamental missing in your relationship, even if he doesn't understand what it is. Children feed of their parent's emtions and it can influence them greatly. I think that is what is happening here. Maybe he is provoking you because he wants emotion from you, or attention, even if it is negative.

It doesn't matter how sweet his life is, if he doesn't have that bond with you, it will show through regardless.

I think PND is a horrible thing and I do not envy anyone having to cope with it. You are trying your best and you are only human so please stop beating yourself up about this because it doesn't do you or him any good. You sound like you are a wonderful mother and just need the emotional stability to bond with your son, something it is never too late to do.

I would say speak to a counsellor or therapist maybe. Can I ask if your husband knows and if he is supportive about this?

I wish you all the best, your story almost made me cry and I hope things work out for you and your son.

[BlueAmy]

I'll admit I don't know anything about medical care in the US, but you can't not get some help with this, for yourself as much as your DS. The fact that you went through some horrible things in your childhood makes it all the more important. There is a lot of stuff you need to work through.

But I maintain, you are not a horrible person and you mustn't believe that you are.

[LDNmummy]

Sorry I wrote all that before seeing your newer posts.

[flyingspaghettimonster]

Alone time with him is a good idea - we actually do have a better time alone together than when the others are there too. I really don't think I can get counselling though as we cannot afford it...

I never did get help for the problem. I told the midwife while I was pregnant that I was extremely depressed and having feelings of self harm - she told social services and the hospital and I was made to feel like an evil child murderer, the nurses were told to check me every hour through day and night and ask probing questions... even though I told them time and again the feelings were aimed at myself, never the baby. So when they came to my home after the birth with all their questionnaires I made up the answers and checked all the right boxes so that they would all back off. Whilst I didn't feel attached, I did feel fiercely maternal in that I wasn't going to let anyone take my baby from me. I felt very let down by the system as I had expected that PND was widespread enough that I would be offered counselling and help, instead they acted disproving and judgemental and made me scared to ask for help in case they used my feelings against me. I don't know what you are supposed to say to actually get help with bonding issues, but clearly the truth was not right.

[winnybella]

You need to stop repeating to yourself that he's a whiney, annoying kid. Even if he is.
First of all, don't indulge him. He sound a bit spoiled tbh.
Second, you need to spend more time together, just the two of you. It doesn't have to be trips to the movies, it can be just sitting on his bed, playing a board game, talking. Don't force it-he'll sense it.
Observe him. Try to see beyond the whingyness. You do love him, but your guilt and his behaviour make it difficult for you two to get close iyswim.
That's what you need to do-get close to him- and not just saying 'honey, would you like a cookie" etc, but just hang out together. And don't try too hard.

[LDNmummy]

I think women with PND are still treated very badly by society and am not surprised by your experience.

Could you maybe fly back to the UK for a 'holiday' period and have some counselling? Maybe if you have family to stay with for instance?

I just think your situation is too important to stay overlooked as you seem so down on yourself let alone your son.

[winnybella]

Sorry, not very coherent post, was trying to write while toddler DD was screeching from her bed.

[LDNmummy]

Or maybe there are self help ways to beat this? I don't know too much about it but had a quick look and came across this site for instance www.postnataldepression.com/self-help

[flyingspaghettimonster]

yes, we all have medical insurance, but the way it works means that we pay $150 for a doctor visit, plus prescription charges of whatever the medication costs (and sometimes just an antibiotic costs $150... I have been prescribed meds in the past that I just couldn't get - I am not paying $300 for anti nausea pills!) My husband had a stroke late last year, but had a wonderful recovery, yet he needs meds every month for the rest of his life (we are 30) and so medically speaking, we only seek help if it is for the kids or something that is not going to get better without care. I don't even see the doctor for my rheumatoid arthritis.

I am travelling back to the UK for the whole summer, with the kids and without hubby. Are there any counselling places that aren't too pricey, or groups like AA but for Mums with baggage? I don't think I would qualify for NHS counselling as we haven't been in the UK for 4 years now. I know how everyone feels about NHS tourists and I would hate to be one of them :-S

I think I should say - we do have fun together too. I am not always focussing on my feelings or lack of them. I am just down about it tonight as I often am when I have too much time to think or at night before I sleep. And with more focus, I actually think I also don't have memories for him after age 3 - anything except how he is here and now in the last few weeks, or things that involve the other kids. Objectively, I can see he is a gorgeous by and he is fiercely loyal to his family and loves us a lot. I can also see that his personality is far closer to my own than the other two kids, so maybe we clash a lot there too. We are both incredibly stubborn and opinionated. Maybe I do read too much into his negative behaviour because I do see it through a film of my own feelings.

[AgentZigzag]

Nobody would resent the NHS helping someone who needs it, and there's always someone to help if you're ready to look for them if you're not entitled because of being abroad for four years.

With your experience of telling the midwife, I don't know where you were for them to be checking you hourly, but they were doing it out of concern for you as much as your baby.

You did the right thing telling them, but they just look to me as though they were worried about you and wanted to keep you both safe.

It shouldn't have been any other way.

[LDNmummy]

OP I get why you can't pay for it in the US as I have friends and family living out there too and it is so rediculously expensive to recieve medical care.

Maybe try contacting an organization like Mind and see what direction they can point you in. There may be mum groups that help each other out or locally run schemes you could benefit from. Here is a link www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1190909-Is-it-my-fault-and-what-can-I-do

Or maybe try some other organizations based around mental health and wellbeing.

[LDNmummy]

Ok that is really not the right link

Here it is www.mind.org.uk/help/diagnoses_and_conditions/post-natal_depression