To think we have something to learn form the 'Chinese' mother story?

[Cortina]

Looking beyond her questionable motivational methods she clearly believed in the seemingly limitless potential of her children and the merits of instilling good self discipline.

I have so many friends who haven't achieved their potential and are now disappointed and depressed as a result. Parents who shouted up the stairs 'have you done your homework' and that was as far as it went. Musical talents being wasted, practice and interest waned as computer and TV use increased. In the bottom stream at school they channelled their energies into becoming the class clown laughing at the 'boffins' in the top set.

The rot set in early at primary level when they were allowed to coast and nothing happened at home to reinforce learning. Many left school with dead end jobs that don't reflect their ability.

Know I am a mother myself I see that self discipline and solid early foundations take a child far. My friends that did school work with their children before they went to school have seen that their child is often believed in early and this positive view of what they may be capable of tends to shadow the child through their school career.

What one child can achieve really very many can but we seem to like to believe that we are all prisoners of our IQ in the UK when really this might just be a cop out? Resources are limited and we have to decide who 'deserves' a good education so that may be one reason why. With effort we can all get better and who knows what is possible? Cognitive science has shown this so much recently but we love to cling to old beliefs about IQ etc. Children who are treated as if they are more intelligent often become so, they come to see themselves as learners who can improve and bounce back when faced with short term failures.

I've seen intelligent children being 'made' over time rather than being born. Are Asian children genetically more intelligent than others? I found that I could beat the most gifted pupil in my class in almost any test if I put the hours in. Put the hours in I used to with some subjects, sometimes putting myself to bed when I came home from school until bedtime so I wasn't tempted by anything else. Then I'd revise solidly, read widely and think deeply. Many thought I'd got an average IQ at best and that I wasn't very smart, but just look what I could do!

Self discipline takes you far in life. Angela Duckworth and Martin Seligman of the University of Pennsylvania found that students ability to stay focused and engaged with a difficult task and not give up predicted their performance in school tests and exams twice as well as their IQ did. Self discipline predicted their grades, IQ did not.

I am also a huge advocate of Carol Dweck (who should pay me for all the publicity I give her :)). Later today I am attending a meeting with a group of high powered business people. I will be listened to and my view will count. Before I adopted a growth mindset this simply wouldn't have happened.

[OTheHugeManatee]

I have no doubt that you're right. You do sound like an odious smuggins though.

[emy72]

I like that book too. (The growth mindset) and I am firm believer that most people can achieve a lot more than they do.

My Ds1 for example, August born, started school could not hold a pencil at all, his fine motor skills are diabolical. With a lot of effort on our behalf, now a few months on he is able to write almost as well as his sister did this time in Reception. We never had to put the effort in to get her to where he is now as it came naturally to her, but a lot of effort going was worth it for my son's confidence. We were spurred to do this as a lot of little boys in Y1 have been written off by the school with the "boys don't like/are not good at writing". We set ourselves the challenge to get my DS1 to be as good as his sister and so far so good. He loves it by the way, so no forcing there.

I do believe that, draconian methods aside, we need high aspiration for kids to succeed.

I was brought up in a poor family but with very high aspirations and I think it was the high expectations my parents had of me, combined with hard work, that made me successful in whatever I have chosen to do in life.

I really can't thank them enough for it.

[Cortina]

Oh for the luxury of being a 'smuggins', if only you knew...

[IndigoBell]

Self discipline predicted their grades If the discipline needs to come from the self - then it can't come from the parent.

[Lamorna]

If people haven't achieved their potential it is their own fault! As adults, if they regret it they should get off their backside and put it right, it is never too late. They can do OU, take up the piano, join amateur dramatics, take A'levels etc etc etc and not say it was the parent's fault for not pushing them! Neither should they decide that their DC is going to do it instead! If they want their DC to practise the violin for 4 hrs a day there is nothing to stop them doing the same.
Every parent needs to encourage and support, but it has to be self discipline. Those who can't cope at university are the ones whose parents have timetabled homework and everything else.

[bupcakesandcunting]

The only thing I learned from the Chinese mother story was not to be such a controlling, joyless fuckwit.

[JaneS]

But what about the negative side to what you describe? Children who constantly feel criticized, pushed and judged?

What you call 'talents', and academic results, are very nice but not the be all and end all.

[JaneS]

Or what bupcakes said ...

[Lamorna]

They were never ever going to achieve their potential if as adults they are still saying it wasn't their fault!
There are people who achieve their potential at 90 (have a book published, start painting spring to mind)-anyone who is young enough to have DC they may want to push should most certainly be getting out and achieving their own potential. It is all too easy to do it for someone else, e.g. put the DC on a diet and scoff fattening things themselves!

[FranSanDisco]

I don't think there is a one size fits all approach to parenting/education. I was personally turned off education due to parental pressure which made me feel I could never be good enough. My two dcs react differently to praise; one is competitive and sensitive to critism whilst the other couldn't give a flying fuck and does very well with that attitude. I doubt Mrs Chinese Mother has all the answers so I'll carry on as I am.

[nobodyisasomebody]

You can encourage your children and foster self discipline without abuse imho.

I have always praised effort without pushing.

I have read lots of your posts and they all say roughly the same thing. I.e that you do not believe that intelligence or IQ is fixed and that children that are perceived to be intelligent become so.

I agree with the positive mindset thing but a lot of the things you post about children that are perceived to be intelligent becoming more so because of that perception and the opportunities given to them is not the experience that I have had.


The top set often includes the class clown IME.

[missorinoco]

I disagreed with more than I agree with in that article. Yes, positive reinforcement is good to ensure your children do their homework etc, but I want my children to know they are loved and valued whether they become a rocket scientist or a street sweeper.

However, if they get a poor grade for effort (c.f. attainment) we will be having words.

[Cleofartra]

"If people haven't achieved their potential it is their own fault!"

Yes. Children from rich families generally do VASTLY better professionally because they are so much better motivated than kids from poor homes. It's got absolutely nothing to do with having a first rate private education, copious tutoring, foreign travel, hot-housing etc.

Poor people are all just lazy. That's why they often do badly in life.

OP - just thank the lord that we're not all pushy fuckers with our children, like so many parents in far-eastern countries. Because when that happens you get a sort of 'nuclear arms race' going on with tutoring and education.
poorlittlebuggers

[Lamorna]

What has rich and poor got to do with it? Lots of poor people have drive, aspirations and parents who want them to succeed, lots of rich people shove their DCs off on others and they can easily end up on drugs etc.
It is attitude, and it needs to come from within. Someone of 30yrs moaning that their parents should have pushed them is pathetic, they are old enough to push themselves and make up for lost time.

[Cleofartra]

Children from poor families are vastly less likely to succeed academically and professionally than children from wealthy families. Yes, some poor children will excel, but most will do far worse than if they'd been born to privileged parents.

"It is attitude, and it needs to come from within"

'Attitude' doesn't come from nowhere! It's shaped by environment, early childhood experiences, being exposed to good examples, having high expectations and having a rigorous education. Children who don't have these advantages are much less likely to become self-motivated adults, however much they want to.

[cory]

In my own opinion self-discipline is something totally different from working hard because you are afraid that anything other than top results will send mummy screaming like a banshee.

The clue is in the word: self-discipline is the bit that you do yourself. Yes, it needs to be nurtured by the parents, but if you are going to internalise it, you need a situation where the parent is not totally in charge; children gradually need to learn to take charge themselves.

Absolutely agree with Lamorna; not least about the university thing. Ime the students who fail at university are the ones who have always been told what to do and have never developed the ability to think creatively, question authority and push themselves. They may turn up at our doors with A*s, but that doesn't mean they are going to thrive in higher education.

[southeastastra]

surely there is only too many violinsits and pianists the world needs?

[pickgo]

I taught 1st year undergrads for a few years. Many students who came with A* grades found that their style of learning was not successful for a HE curriculum which demanded independent thought and an open mind to new arguments.
The curriculum reflected a wider concept of education than solely that of attainment and vocational success.
Sadly, I think this is changing and even in humanities, the last bastion of a liberal education, the only value perceived will be in vocational outcomes, or 'getting far in life'.
What's missing with all this 'discipline', 'solid foundations' and sheer smugness () is (the also well researched fact) that what most motivates people to learn most is if they enjoy it. Letting children find out what THEY are interested in and encouraging their interest if far more valuable IMHO than imposing some great 'self' discipline on them.

[Lancelottie]

SEA -- yes, what's with this 'only piano and violin will do' attitude? If everyone plays violin, where are they going to get the rest of the orchestra?

(Mind you, as accidental parent of brass-playing offspring, I can see there's nothing very aspirational about lugging around something the size, weight and approximate sound range of a radiator.)

[peanutbutterkid]

I am the self-disciplined person I know, and I can think of very little my parents did to especially foster that (my brothers are among the least self-disciplined people you could ever meet).

I am still toying with what Chua said about how the Chinese view their kids as very tough (rather than the Western model of fragile egos). And what that would mean, realistically. But otherwise...

When I heard Chua interviewed what struck me was:

Chua moves in circles of very high achieving people with high expectations of their offspring. This is the peer group Chua wants her children to compete with;

She teaches at Ivy League; she wants her children to go to Ivy League, too (another peer group expectation). Ivy League only takes the highest achieving intake. That's the only reason why the violin and piano (or tennis) mattered.

Chua's immigrant parents knew they were at a social disadvantage (immigrant status, skin colour, culture). Her immigrant parents had a chip on their shoulder about making sure their kids could overcome those social handicaps. Which is why Chua's own mother criticised Amy for being too pushy, Amy's kids already have the social advantages that Amy & her siblings lacked.

Americans don't have the "Stuck in your place" attitude traditional to British culture, we Yanks firmly believe that our fate is ours to make. And even most of us Yanks think that parents like Chua are nuts. Her book has been controversially received over there, too, even in the nation of self-starters and boundless optimism about the possibilities of personal achievement.

[linziluv]

I would have really benefited from stricter parents...
I was a very bright pupil with NO self discipline at all. My teachers said the same every year at parents evening...that I was passing with flying colours in all subjects but I could achieve so much more if I put my mind to it. I was so lucky that everything came so easy to me, ie, half hour revision before an exam would get me a pass no probs. I think this made me lazy. As encouraging as they were, I would have liked to have been made to stay in and do homework!
I passed grade 5 clarinet with distinction but gave it up when i discovered boys!
My mum had an affair and left dad halfway through my A levels, I just left college with AS levels and not amazing grades at that and was never discouraged.
Uni was hardest for me...completely left to my own devices! I still passed without much effort but highly disorganized! I managed 2 years before I got PND after DS and left! Thankfully, at 24 I've finally got my head screwed on!
My cousin is 20 and doing a nursing degree...her parents MAKE her stay in on a Sunday to do uni work...I'm actually jealous! She still adores her parents and vice versa.
I think it entirely depends on the child...not all kids will respond to the same approach, I definitely think parents can do a lot more in the younger years to encourage good habits such as self discipline.

[lovelyopaque]

I sort of disagree with Lamorna. It is so much harder to achieve some things later in life. Once you have dc and work, your time is limited, and your finances may not stretch to OU or piano lessons. Not saying it can't be done, but the person who was encouraged to do those things as a child, has the advantage.

[cory]

My parents were the main influence in turning me into an academic, but I have no recollection of them ever making me stay in to do my homework. It was far more subtle and mainly to do with them leading by example: I saw how much pleasure they got from learning new things and improving their own minds and I wanted that to. I am sure that has had a more long-lasting positive effect than screeching at me and calling me worthless.

[Blackletterday]

linziluv, that is not self discipline, I am that at 20 her parents would "make" her stay in . I coasted for most of my school life, but when A-Levels hit I did realise that I needed to put some work in. I had shit attendance but copied notes from friends and revised hard when exams were due, I did well.

Fucked up Uni many times though . I'm in two minds about this issue tbh. My dd is very bright and I am torn between pushing and leaving her be. I'm not fussed about the whole money/status thing that most people regard as "success" in life. I'd much rather she found her niche in life, something that gives her pleasure, rather than a successfull(high stress) career, obviously if those 2 things coincided that would be fine.

I agree with the op that children are not born with some kind of glass ceiling in terms of achievement. Determination and hard work will get you far, but sometimes things are out of your reach, people have different aptitudes.

A friend at college was desperate to be a vet, she worked hard, put the hours in etc. She ended up with a D in biology. I don't think she could have worked harder ergo she had no chance of being a vet. Thats life.

[linziluv]

You see cory, that's why I think every child is different...my parents both had great work ethics, mum was a nurse, dad a manager...their example didn't do much to improve my self discipline! I just know, in hindsight, what would have worked for me personally, but totally accept that other methods work also.