Mermaids vs LGB Alliance and Charity Commissioner - First-tier Tribunal (General Regulatory Chamber) Thread 4

[nauticant]

UPDATE: a transcript of the proceedings has been published and can be found here: lgballiance.org.uk/tribunal-transcript/

The Tribunal started on 9 September, witness testimony was heard from 12 to 15 September, and then, following a break, closing submissions are taking place on 7 and 8 November.

[This paragraph is probaby now redundant] To obtain access to view the proceedings, send a request email to [email protected] about case CA/2021/0013 - Mermaids vs Charity Commissioner and LGB Alliance and ask for permission to join. You then have to provide certain information and agree to a judge's direction in order to be able to join.

There is also live tweeting from www.twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:

J or judge: Presiding Judge, Judge Lynn Griffin
AJ or Judge: Assisted by Judge Joe Neville
MG: Mermaids counsel is Michael Gibbon KC
KM: LGB Alliance counsel is Karon Monaghan KC
AR: Karon is assisted by Akua Reindorf
IS: Charity Commission counsel is Iain Steele

(Also the witnesses, PR: Paul Roberts, JN: John Nicolson. BB: Belinda Bell, BJ: Beverley Jackson, KH: Kate Harris, and EG: Eileen Gallagher.)

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4629679-mermaids-versus-lgb-alliance-in-court-today
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4632780-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chameber-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4633653-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chamber-thread-3?page=31&reply=121335177
Thread 4: ongoing

Witnesses for the applicant (Mermaids):

Paul Roberts - CEO of LGBT Consortium (12 September)
John Nicolson MP - Deputy Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Global LGBT+ Rights (13 September)
Dr Belinda Bell - Chair of trustees of Mermaids (13 September)

Witnesses for the respondent (LGB Alliance):

Beverley Jackson - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (13-14 September)
Kate Harris - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (14-15 September)
Eileen Gallagher OBE - Chair of trustees of LGB Alliance (15 September)

Witness Statements:

Paul Roberts: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Paul-Roberts-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
John Nicolson MP - www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/John-Nicolson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Dr Belinda Bell: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Belinda-Bell-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Beverley Jackson: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Bev-Jackson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits-1.pdf
Kate Harris: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Kate-Harris-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Eileen Gallagher (two statements): www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Second-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf

Submissions:

www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Volume-4-Submissions-CA.2021.0013.pdf

(Header format follows the gold standard established by @ickky)

post updated by MNHQ at OP's request in order to include the most up to date information.

Thank you, nauticant.

Thanks @nauticant

Thanks nauticant. I have now entered the shouting portion of the afternoon.

Thanks for the new thread 🙏

Unpleasant? Is this a legal argument? FFS

I don't know how AR isn't just shouting by now

'hostile documentation' no less! For shame!

Thanks Nauticant.

On the Equality Act point, surely it is SW who first changed the meanings. Gender Reassignment was fairly clear until it was widened to include preferred pronoun people.

That Nauticant

Here’s the bit of the equality act that says ‘woman means a female of any age’

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/212

This gives me the rage! FFS saying that it is not a fact to say boys can't be girls and girls can't be boys. Show us the evidence then coz I've not seen any evidence so far that humans can change sex.

MG is demonstrating why everyone needs to sign the Sex Matters petition to clarify that sex in the Equality Act refers to biological sex.

.

I say it's not bloody neutral to say that humans can change sex and that teaching this to children is not neutral

Mermaids label anyone who agrees with their views transphobic and says if you think lesbians are same sex attracted that is unacceptable - I don't know why he's opening up this line by focusing on the idea that LGBA think gender identity is homophobic as it denies same sex attraction

Very true

Oh no he is moving next to...

Please can we go to lunch?

MG now starting to talk about Mermaids having "standing".

Oh you naughty people chatting here before the other thread is full.

Standing. This should be crucial. Whole case could fall on this.

From the notes on the EQ10 legislation

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/12/notes

Sexual orientation is defined on the basis of sex (unsurprisingly enough!)

The conflation of sex & gender was at the behest of activists. It was a deliberate ploy to prevent orgs who may wish to utilise SSEs from being able to clearly distinguish between sex & gender reassignment when it came to SSSs. That wasn't done because there's was ambiguity over these 2 distinct PCs. But to create ambiguity & confusion when considering legal implications of excluding males from female spaces/services etc.

All this nonsense over whether sex really means sex or does it mean whatever activists want it to mean? It's an activist ploy. Nowt more.

The judgement in the FWS v Scotgov case in the GRPB bill made it clear that by including men who identify as transwomen in the definition of women conflated 2 distinct & separate PCs and reinforced the fact that the definition of man/woman = male/female of any age = biologically defined terms, will hopefully be quoted in the rebuttal.

As much as activists was us all to believe there's grey areas or overlap, there isn't. There never was.

Hello all

Hello Bernard.

MM accepts that a human rights charity is acceptable. On the other hand if they focus on a small group then there is no benefit. The question comes down to: what are their true purposes? Does a sufficient number of the public need LGBA?

from Tribunal Tweets. Is that really as absurd an argument as it seems or is something missing from the summary? Charities focusing on people with rare genetic disorders wouldn’t be allowed by this logic.

I don't know @TastefulRainbowUnicorn what does that mean for charities that are set up to fund treatment for one person eg to get treatment in the states for something. The nhs won't cover?

Hmm yes @TastefulRainbowUnicorn I'm sure there are many more LGB people than there are trans identifying children, so again are Mermaids shooting themselves in the foot with their strange logic?