Professional women getting squeezed out of careers by crazy long hours culture

[ocelot41]

Just thought I would post this brilliant bit of research - sounds like so many of my friends. Anyone else?
blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/2016/11/04/women-who-quit-their-careers-a-group-rarely-investigated/

[ocelot41]

Argh! Reposting link

blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/2016/11/04/women-who-quit-their-careers-a-group-rarely-investigated/

[starsinyourpies]

It sounds like these women do not have a job problem, they have a DH problem. My husband changed his working hours when I returned to work and as the higher earner I was able to share home responsibilities 50/50. Surely this is fairer on both employers?

[ocelot41]

I think its both - a bonkers long hours culture, especially in London and DHs who, deep down, think that the house and childrearing is 'really' a woman's job when it comes down to it. I have lost count of the number of friends affected by this

[ocelot41]

It is very different in Sweden, where I have worked, and where its totally normal for men to take days off to, for example, parent a sick child. No one bats an eyelid.

[M0stlyHet]

I know I've posted on this before because it's a bit of a hobby-horse of mine. There's a fascinating analysis of long-hours culture in the game design industry, and how it is in fact counter-productive: Robinson on crunch mode

So, the thing is, it's well known in management theory circles that long hours cultures actually lead to lower productivity. So if the economics don't stack up, you have to ask what function the demand for long hours actually plays. And I think it's one of social control. By demanding long hours of your employees you are asking them to demonstrate that they put the company ahead of everything else in their lives - partners, families, hobbies. And, on a feminist note, it also functions as a handy mechanism of social exclusion - people with caring responsibilities (which, statistically, tends to be women) can't demonstrate those levels of loyalty, so get excluded, even if they're damn good at their job. It's another mechanism (like deals done on the golf course, or masonic handshakes, or - still common in sectors of the banking industry - going to strip clubs) which functions to exclude various groups of people, women in particular.

[Webuyanyname]

The long hours culture in professional careers is only one possible factor and if we're honest, affects a small part of the population (prof high earners being a minority).

The high cost of childcare and high housing costs resulting in long commutes, are probably factors that have resulted in far more women leaving professional jobs.
Add in long school holidays/short school days, inadequate wrap around care and inflexible employers - its a wonder any parent is still in viable paid work.

[M0stlyHet]

Can you give us a quick summary of why your blog is relevant to this discussion, perception? (I ask because MN has rules on self-publicising blogs - I think you're supposed to post in blogger's corner. Fair enough if your blog relates directly to long-hours culture and feminism, but not so good if you're just taking an opportunity to get clicks on your website.)

[HandbagCrab]

It's really interesting. The long hours culture has filtered down from the high paying professions to the more middling ones. It feels like there's no escape atm. I don't see how it's possible for 2 parents to work 12+ hour days without loads of family support or enough money to afford a nanny. I think tackling work/life balance and flexible working for men sounds like a real step forward.

[Webuyanyname]

The real difficulty is employers who are reluctant to guarantee an employee can leave by a particular time (even though many employees offer to come in earlier and/or continue working remotely in the late evening).
How many employees can't leave a meeting/phone call mid way through without fear of reprimand?

Every type of childcare (apart from family) has an end time. If you're repeatedly late, no nanny, childminder or nursery will tolerate that for long.

The result? It becomes untenable and either you leave or you're conveniently 'made redundant' to make way for someone free of responsibilities (who probably resented you anyway....until they're in the same position).

[PoochSmooch]

That's a really interesting piece of analysis.

stars, it's not about having a DH problem in this case, it's not just looking at individual factors, but analysing what is going in on that certain jobs demand such long hours and commitment that both partners can't hold down professional jobs because it's incompatible with family life for anyone.

That's really interesting on the social-control aspect, het. I've thought about it before, but you've put it really succinctly there.

As an aside, anyone woman who wants to be the partner who stays in work should definitely marry an Andy. All of the SAHDs of high flying women that I know are called Andy - why??

[dingdongthewitchishere]

I think some women enjoy being a martyr too much.

What do deals on golf course, or racing driving have to do with gender? There are less women than men going to strip clubs, but frankly, even in the city many men are not into that kind of things at all. Things have changed.

In my industry, we do have bonker hours. It's not about social control at all, it's due to the nature of the industry. The competition is really high, and most clients tend to call before, or after their own working hours. If you work 9 to 5, you are missing out on clients, meaning on commission. Your choice.
I can think of a few industries where it is also true. If women decide to feel excluded, it's up to them. In many places, management is only interested about results, and couldn't care less about your gender.

[Xenophile]

Unless you're suggesting that the business research that suggested that stupidly long hours were detrimental were referring only to women, then it's hardly women being "matyrs". More that the presenter Ian prevelant in many industries is self defeating no matter what sex you are and therefore has to be viewed societally.

[Xenophile]

Presenteeism. Obviously.

[MrsGB2015]

This is so true! I had a professional job dominated by men. There was no part time option and the minimum hours were 8-6, but at least one day a week it would be 8-8. People were quite competitive in terms of staying for longer hours and face time. As a mum it was impossible to compete to a single man in terms of hours. Also mums generally live further out of London so have a longer commute.
So for childcare you have to get a nanny or try and drag your children in the rush hour commute to a nursery near your work because you can't make the opening hours of local nurseries.
My DH works 7-6 and often has client things in the evening so can't help out with the nursery run.
Also most people in London don't have families nearby.
So I had no choice but to stop working or to get a nanny for 7-7 5 days a week.

[M0stlyHet]

Handbag - good point about the long hours culture filtering down. This is a recent article on the new pay deal at DWP. (Background - public sector has had 3 year pay freeze followed by 1% pay deals - and for many of us, who no longer have pay scales with automatic increments, this has done exactly what it says on the tin - 3% spread over 6 years!)

DWP are allowing workers to "voluntarily" sign a new contract which would enable them to get up to a 20% pay rise - at the cost of being available for work 8am to 8pm, Monday to Saturday. Does anyone know any childcare (other than a live in nanny) which would cover those sorts of hours? Because I don't. So in effect, there are now two classes of workers at DWP - those with no caring responsibilities who can sign up to be exploited in exchange for a pay rise, and those who do have caring responsibilities, who are stuck being paid a pittance.

Incidentally, you don't have to have a long-hours culture for your workplace to be successful. On several measures, my workplace (which has a lot of part-timers, both men and women - and people of both sexes who are part time and out the door mid-afternoon to do school pickups) is ranked consistently top three in the world, never mind the UK.

[ocelot41]

I don't know any SAHDs. I know only one man who scaled back to 4 days a week (his DW did too). That's out of at least, what 80 families I know through school. My DH is pretty rare in sticking to his hours unless it is an emergency and that took 4 years of repeated arguments to achieve

[DeviTheGaelet]

Totally agree with that link. I have a long hours professional job that I can only do because my DH does most of the childcare/housework in the week. But we are both trapped by it - him in a lower paid more flexible job he's bored with but allows him to do the childcare. Me in a high paid long hours job which we need to pay the mortgage on the house. It would be much easier if the expectation of long hours wasn't a precondition of high pay.
I can't see any way both parents can have a career job without pretty much abdicating childcare to a nanny/boarding school. Which probably isn't going to be acceptable to a lot of parents.

mostly interesting thoughts on social control. I read a really interesting article too about how in fact many men just subvert the long hours culture (ie by going home during the day or claiming to be working remotely while on holiday) where women try to play fair by asking for flex arrangements and the women are penalised.

[DeviTheGaelet]

Found the link!
hbr.org/2015/04/why-some-men-pretend-to-work-80-hour-weeks

[ocelot41]

That's a really interesting piece Devi - thanks for posting the link. It all just feels insane - most adults of a certain age have children, but rather than structuring work in ways that allow for that, parents are forced to lie!

[LoveAMoan]

I can relate to all of this- I work FT in a long hours culture (not a well paid one though) where it's known I am a mum and I get treated less favourably even though I am a good worker. Stopping work completely isn't an option for us but I do fantasise about it quite often!

[Webuyanyname]

"Incidentally, you don't have to have a long-hours culture for your workplace to be successful."

This is at the heart of it. The myth continues to be peddled that for every industry success is only achievable through 12 hours at your desk, evenings having dinner with clients and weekends on the golf course.

The reality is that's wholly unnecessary for most jobs but it continues to be mandated by blinkered senior managers.

Who's setting the example? Middle aged men with SAHWs who have never heard of wrap around care? Women who buy into the myth they need to ape 'masculine' traits to get ahead?

Our (successful, high performing, talented) team supports parents working (and not just at a senior level). Almost all of the senior managers (including the director) are women with kids who don't see it as catastrophic to leave at 5pm or have a non-working day once a week.

Some workplaces just need to drag themselves out of the 1980s and grow up.

[BigChocFrenzy]

This culture of insanely long hours applies from pretty low down the payscale - just to keep your job - through to professional jobs - required for career progression.

imo though, it seems more the UK-USA / Anglosphere / Asian business culture:

I've worked mostly in Germany, plus a few other EU countries, since the late 1980s and it's usual on the continent to stick to office hours, including professional jobs.
The standard contract is 37.5 hrs, maximum 40 hrs, which are both genuine

Continual unpaid overtime would raise eyebrows and probably a meeting with your manager to discuss adjusting workload or more efficient working practices.

Also, only the UK has the optout waiver from the EU Working Hrs Directive for contract hrs. Some firms require employees to sign the optout waiver before giving them a job.
A coerced "choice".

In my profession in Germany - scientific / R&D - it's easy for mothers to take a couple of years off and definitely expected that fathers take a few months parental leave for a new lo.
Senior managers do this too and it doesn't affect career - in fact a man not doing so would be regarded as not being well-rounded.

A far more civilised work / life balance and Germany in particular is far more productive than the UK on average.

[BigChocFrenzy]

and women returning after 2 years resume their career without penalty

[M0stlyHet]

Big that's what I understood to be the case in Germany too. I remember a German friend of mine saying "In the UK, if you're not in the office at 8.00pm the boss wants to know why you're slacking. In Germany, if you're not out the door at 5.00pm the boss wants to know why you're so inefficient."