What is the motive behind this behaviour?? (long and rambling)

[BreeVDKamp]

(Sorry if this is not the right topic!)

This morning I was climbing some stairs up to the local Post Office. A man came chasing me up the stairs, saying something to me. I thought he wanted to get past, or say something important, so I took my headphones out - but nope! He was just catcalling and saying “Hello beautiful!” in this really sickening, lecherous tone, and looking me up and down. He actually reached out to touch me!!

I just scowled at him and kept walking, and he disappeared, but I was fucking enraged and wanted to shout: “I am 7 months pregnant and married, what the fuck do you hope to achieve here??”. I didn’t because on the one hand I didn’t want to give him the satisfaction of acknowledging him, and on the other hand I was a little apprehensive of what he would say back to me.

Last time I said something back to one of these people, it went like this:

Moron In Street: Sexy lady!!!!
?Me: Shut up. (lame I know)
?MIS: YOU SHUT UP! FAT BITCH!!

…After just having said I was sexy! And I thought he was going to follow me after that, he sounded FURIOUS that I had dared talk back.

Now, this behaviour makes me so livid. It is a daily occurence where I live, men doing this in the street. What is the reason they do it? I know it has absolutely nothing to do with how beautiful the woman is, as my example above demonstrates (and behaving this way because the woman is stunning is just as gross, obvs). They will do it to anyone and in my experience it doesn’t matter how dressed up or scruffy I am, they will still do it. It seems there is nothing I can wear that doesn’t make me feel like I am on show to please the men, because they will behave like this no matter what I am wearing. It is not about how attractive the woman is, it is something else. And what is that something? What are they trying to achieve or demonstrate?

Also, it is always a certain kind of man, but what kind of man? In my experience it is not to do with race or age, but no man I choose to associate with would ever dream of intimidating a woman in the street like this, or even saying “cheer up love, it might never happen!”. It wouldn't even occur to them. Likewise I would never think to leer at a man in the street, let alone say something to them. So what is the common factor here?

It’s maddening because I do find it intimidating, but they would say that they are just being nice and paying you a compliment, so how can that be intimidating? It is so underhanded. Maybe that is why it is so rife.

On similar threads in the past I’ve seen women say : “Just be glad you get some attention!” / “Ah, they are just trying to cheer you up” / “You’ll miss it when you’re old!”… but no. That is not the point.

I get enough attention from my husband, I don’t want attention from this kind of….. (Agh, what is that word!!! This is what I can’t put my finger on!) I don’t want attention from this kind of predatory???* man.

I don’t need cheering up, I am ludicrously happy in my life thanks. That is just my face at rest. I won’t walk around with a smile on my face and get sore cheeks just in case I walk past a man who would rather I smile.

I will not miss it when I am old, I was hoping having a baby bump might stop this sort of thing, at least temporarily. Will it continue when I’m pushing my newborn down the street, or when I’m walking along with a toddler or school-age child??

*I don’t know if it’s predatory. It’s like they think they are God’s gift and we women will be delighted that they deign to talk to us. So, arrogance then? But even that is not it. I don’t know the word to describe their attitude. Can anyone help me out here?

We are moving out of London soon and I am hoping this won't happen so much. I never experienced this behaviour before I moved to London, but I was 18 when I moved here from the countryside so perhaps I just hadn’t had the opportunity to experience this beforehand. I never experience this behaviour outside of London, but perhaps that’s because if I am in other cities I am not just running errands/living my everyday life, so don’t notice it, and I’m less likely to be walking around by myself - I’ve rarely had this happen if walking along with a friend or in a group. It’s like they don’t have the balls to act this way unless it’s to a lone woman.

It’s sad - because I’m so used to this happening, I am always prepared to be defensive when walking down the street, so if a man makes eye contact and says good morning or something, perfectly nicely, I always skip a beat before smiling and saying hello back while I try and work out if there is a horrible objectifying comment coming. It’s sad! I like strangers being friendly to each other!

Another thing is, they’re so thick that if a man ever behaved in the same way to one of their daughters, I bet they would beat him up, and wouldn’t see the contradiction here.

AIBU and absurd to be so utterly incensed by this vile culture? I don’t even know what to call it. The day to day objectifying of women? What are they trying to do? Why do they do it? It makes my blood boil. What is the word for this behaviour??? And what can I do about it?

[Smartleatherbag]

You're not overreacting at all! It is horrible and it's a way of attacking women in public spaces. Do you know the everyday sexism project? You'd find a lot to relate to there, as would all of us. And you're completely right, it doesn't matter what you wear etc etc, it still happens and it IS a big issue.

[Smartleatherbag]

Postscript: ime it's less prevalent outside cities, I think the anonymity makes it easier for the wankers to think they can get away with it.

[EElisavetaOfBelsornia]

No over reaction at all. It's a controlling thing, you feel sort of forced to smile and react like you LIKE this shit, because there is the implicit threat of a negative reaction if you challenge it. It's rubbish. I've always lived in cities myself do I'm interested that it's less prevalent elsewhere - another tick for my escape London plan! Hope you're ok after this morning OP.

[stoopstoconker]

It always felt like a power thing to me. As women we have traditionally been conditioned/expected to want approval from men, because in many societies they call the shots.

[EBearhug]

On similar threads in the past I’ve seen women say : “Just be glad you get some attention!” / “Ah, they are just trying to cheer you up” / “You’ll miss it when you’re old!”… but no. That is not the point.

Don't think I have seen it on threads in FWR, but elsewhere, yes.

[BreeVDKamp]

I think the anonymity makes it easier for the wankers to think they can get away with it. Yes that was a theory I was pondering on too. I think you are right.

Glad I wasn't being Londonist and others agree it is a city thing.

I am going to have a look at the everyday sexism project.

I am fine thanks EElisaveta, just fed up to the back teeth with it all! Argh.

[BeakyMinder]

Ugh it makes me livid reading your post! Who the fuck do they think they are to behave like this?? Of course it's about power and control. "Look at me, I can say anything I like to you and you can't do anything about it".

Definitely send your story to Everyday Sexism. But honestly, the more stories like this I hear, the more I think vigilante action is the only way forward!!

[avocadotoast]

You're not overreacting at all. Luckily it hasn't happened to me for some time (it used to happen a lot more when I lived closer to the city centre and walked to/from town through an industrial estate. I also used to finish work later, and it seemed to happen more on an evening).

It happens to one of my friends a lot (she lives in a different city to me). She's a lot braver than I am and always tells them to fuck off

One thing I would say though, if you ever get catcalled by someone who's clearly working, complain to their employer. I once did this when I used to walk through aforementioned industrial estate and someone shouted at me from a window. The company took it seriously and I got a really good apology email from them. (I think they may have been linked to the council, so that could be part of it.)

[AskBasil]

It's totally a power thing. It's about flexing male power over women.

It's all about saying to a woman "you are in my space, I own this space and you are here because I allow you to be. I just want to remind you that you're not safe here, that you have no right to be here, that I and other men can rape you or use other violence on you because I am a misogynist and I like reminding women that they're not safe in public space because it's male space. And there are lots of twatty men like me in it and we own it and set the tone for how things are conducted in it. And other men (and women) support us because if you respond too negatively you will be accused of over-reacting and being mad/ man-hating/ OTT etc. Ha. I'll be on my way now, preening about the power-rush I've just had by causing your discomfort".

Obviously they're too thick to think that out consciously and deliberately, but basically that's what they're up to.

[PilchardPrincess]

What the others said.

Also there's something maybe about it just not being on to have women wandering around by themselves looking quite content and not existing in relation to men, just actually existing as themselves, and really we can't be having that and we need to remind them who's boss here.

[PilchardPrincess]

Strangely (as it's not the same at all but maybe it is?) is when men do overly "polite" things that there is no point in, which then forces you to respond with a smile / simper / thank you / etc because it would be rude not to.

You are going about minding your own business and some man encroaches on you and does something that forced you to notice him and interact with him. Whether it's a "nice" thing, or not, it all seems to add up to the same thing actually.

YANBU to be angry and YES to wonder what on earth they think they're playing at, what the motivation is. The motivation is to remind you that leaving you alone to get on with your life in quiet comfort is unacceptable, you need to be paying attention to men.

[BreeVDKamp]

Basil! Hit the nail on the head I think.

Interesting to read everyone's views, and I'm glad I wasn't overreacting.

It's totally about stamping on women and putting them in their place. I wonder how many women actually go 'oh thank you, what a lovely thing to say!', and then what would the guy say after that? Paying a compliment is not their real motive, so I wonder how they'd react. It's not like they're going to ask the woman out on a civilised date or anything.

I've also been wondering, who raised these men?? And did they fail, or is it society which later warped their minds? And it's scary that they are now probably role models for other young boys.

[kickassangel]

You should look at the Hollaback website. It's full of examples and good advice. They also have little business cards you can get and hand to guys. They look like a business card, so you can hand them toa guy as if you're handing out your number. But it tells them very politely what they've done wrong.

[rosabud]

It's interesting when you say there does not seem to be a pattern to this sort of man - and that's what makes it so horrible - you just never know where it's going to surface which means you are taken off guard and that is all part of the controlling nature of it. I am well past the age where this happens to me in the street but, recently, I was on a plane and sitting next to a man even older than me, late 60s, very respectable looking. He stood up to let me reach my seat. I thanked him and said that I just needed to take my coat off first. His reaction? "Oh don't stop there!"

Why? Just why?? I am clearly a middle aged, mature member of society and in addition I was travelling with my teenage daughter - you'd think that either of those factors might have entitled me to some respect - but no! Infuriating.

DD and I may have had our revenge later in the flight when I massaged DD's really smelly feet for her right under his nose. Childish but satisfying.

[AKnickerfulOfMenace]

Well put, Basil.

I like this analogy;

www.theferrett.com/ferrettworks/2012/08/can-i-buy-you-a-coffee/

[Lottapianos]

Totally with you OP - its a horrible experience. I usually deal with it by giving them the most disgusted look I can manage and shaking my head at them. Because it is utterly pathetic behaviour - most people get enough attention and validation in their lives without having to harass total strangers on the street.

I do think there's a lot to be said for just ignoring it too - these idiots are all thick as mince and I'm not at all sure that a challenge will cause them to reflect on their behaviour. Its more likely they will get a massive kick out of any reaction at all. And yet, why the hell should we stay silent and just suck it up??? Oh I hate this issue!

[PilchardPrincess]

YY it's all about getting a reaction out of you / getting your attention on them whether that attention and reaction is positive or not.

I ignore but of course some can be persistent and / or become aggressive if you do that.

Really makes me angry that women and girls have to negotiate all this stuff when we're just minding our own business & trying to get on with our lievs. I don't want to be harassed / shouted at / followed / concerned that someone might get aggressive.

It tails off as you get older and while the accepted wisdom is that it's because younger girls / women are more attractive there is also a big chunk of older women are far more likely to call them on it in a way they don't enjoy / contact the authorities if it's bad. Younger girls and women tend not to know how to react (I never did) and so they are more likely to get what they want.

Arseholes every single one of them.

And then you get these wankers saying "oh feminists don't want men being attracted to women, men aren't allowed to smile at anyone, they want to ban sex".

[AskBasil]

I love that coffee thing

[GibberingFlapdoodle]

"On similar threads in the past I’ve seen women say : “Just be glad you get some attention!” / “Ah, they are just trying to cheer you up” / “You’ll miss it when you’re old!”… but no. That is not the point. "

You won't get that on here we've all had it and we all hate it. It makes you feel like nothing but a sex object, valuable for nothing except being used and chucked away at male pleasure. Does wonders for self-esteem doesn't it.

It's bullshit of course, you are waaay too important to be wasted on them. As is every other female in the country, wish we could get that message across to all youngsters.

The way he turned on you afterwards made me laugh, I was called 'frigid whore' more than once. It's just typical male tantrum at not getting what he wants. I've outgrown the worst of it. I can assure you I do not miss it. Not looking forward to its effects on my dd either.

[TondelayoSchwarzkopf]

I totally agree with you OP. I've also been harassed while heavily pregnant and it is revolting and intimidating. It is purely a power play - nothing to do with how hot you are.

BUT it is not a city thing in my experience. I grew up in a rural area where street harassment, cat-calling and physical assault are pretty common par for the course I've had a lot less experience of it living in London. I went to a small 'quaint' seaside town a few weeks ago. Bearing in mind I'm 41 and therefore long past the age where it is a daily problem, I got some kind of harassment every day.

I'm hoping that the Hollaback project and Everyday Sexism is making girls much more empowered to shout back and call it out. I saw a group of (seemingly respectable, "nice", middle aged) male cyclists shout 'compliments' at 3 teenage girls the other day. Was proud of the girls for yelling 'fuck off!'

[kickassangel]

heart Hollaback [[http://www.ihollaback.org/]]

I kind of have a plan in my head (not that plans ever work out) that once I've finished my MA, I will volunteer at a local teen center called The Neutral Zone (where prejudice and judgement aren't allowed), and get a Hollaback branch set up in the city. It's a big university city, and it would be great to have something around here.

I did some training with some Hollaback people a year ago, and they were really good. There were some very practical examples of how to deal with cat calling, as well as well thought out theory behind it. (Why it happens, how to end it etc).

One of the best things they pointed out was that when you're not sure if a man might get angry, you can 'intervene' for another woman by just asking them the time, or any other inconsequential thing, as it breaks the barrier of silence.

I really think that if older guys are cat calling teens then 'paedophile! pervert!' etc are entirely appropriate responses. Since WHEN is it OK for a 40 year old to lech after a teen? (Has a little dream sequence where some suit pervs at a teen and suddenly every woman in earshot is pointing and yelling 'pervert' at him until he STFU and runs away).

[kickassangel]

Try again

[KeepitDown]

I read a casual experiment somewhere a while back, where some women decided to simply agree with any compliments they got. I think this was over social media, so all internet-based.

For example, a man would say, "You have such pretty eyes!" And instead of denying it or downplaying, the woman would say something like, "Thank you, I know," or "They are, aren't they."

The responses to that were all hostile and insulting, and usually withdrawing the compliment just given! It's like they don't want you to actually enjoy/believe the compliment.

It was interesting, I'll see if I can find it.

[KeepitDown]

Hmm, there were more examples, but it's late, and this is the closest quick example of it I can find.

Women accepting compliments - social experiment.