Who else is expecting a tidal wave of self-righteous misogyny?

(99 Posts)

Given how much left wing men, in particular, love having what they consider justification for a bit of woman-hating, they're all going to be going into overdrive for the next few days...

TunipTheVegedude Tue 09-Apr-13 20:19:09

I think you can separate out different qualities and say 'I admire this person because of that aspect of their achievement'. It doesn't have to be the whole package.
When Thatcher made that speech at the party conference after the Brighton bomb, arriving on time and perfectly poised and calm - that was impressive. You can disagree with her political philosophy and think she lacked empathy, and still admire it.
Quite a lot of the people who inspire me for one reason, I find completely revolting for another. Almost anyone male pre-20th century is pretty shit on women's rights and racism, for a start.

TunipTheVegedude Tue 09-Apr-13 20:20:51

(oops - have implied racism is male - didn't mean that at all)

betterthanever Tue 09-Apr-13 21:48:07

So glad there is a thread on this.
I think that for all her intelligence she felt that to stand up and be seen as equal to men she had to behave like they were at the time. I think given her time again and had she been coming into power now, she would have been more her true self and been much better. It took me to get older to understand what feminism was, I think when she said that quote she didn't understand it was being about being equal which is how she wanted to be treated. I think she just didn't want her gender to be discussed at all. I think she would see herself as a feminist now. I don't think I will see another female prime minister in this country in my life time which is so very, very sad. When I see the archive footage of the miners strike I see no females.

FasterStronger Wed 10-Apr-13 09:07:39

So MT gets judged for not considering herself a feminist.

How many 87 year olds consider themselves feminists? How many women under 87 consider themselves feminists?

We cannot restrict the status of feminist icon to self proclaimed feminists.

namechangeguy Wed 10-Apr-13 09:26:08

Guessing here, but I imagine Maggie equated feminists with left-wing hang-wringers and hippies, rather than business leaders and capitalists, and therefore she wanted no truck with them. She obviously was in favour of equality between the genders.

The reasons for no further female PM since her seems peculiar to the UK. There seem to be far less barriers in other western countries. There is something wrong with our system.

Unami Wed 10-Apr-13 11:42:29

Fasterstronger It's not just a question of her rhetoric alone (though it left a lot to be desired, even in comparison with her contemporary women politicians).

It's the fact that she did nothing for women on the level of policy, nor did she do much to advance equality on the level of policy.

She's an icon of individualism.

FasterStronger Wed 10-Apr-13 12:05:01

unami - to be feminists, we just need to agree that women are equal to men. we don't need to agree about how we get to that goal.

I don't think she had to specifically do anything to 'help women'. she completed against men in a v sexist environment and won.

WilsonFrickett Wed 10-Apr-13 12:38:35

I think if someone turns around and tells you they are not a feminist, they actively dislike feminism and they despise 'women's lib' - as a feminist I am going to listen to what that woman tells me, really, and not then declare her a feminist icon.

Fair enough, people who were around before the concept was established obviously wouldn't have self-declared, but I think post-suffragism actually self-identifying as a feminist is absolutely necessary to being declared a feminist icon.

Unami Wed 10-Apr-13 13:02:30

I don't think it's sufficient to "just agree" that "women are equal to men". "Just" agreeing is meaningless unless people are given the tools, opportunities and resources to create a more equal society. Otherwise we can just agree that women and men are equal while continuing to pay women less, support cultural expectations that women are responsible to childcare, restrict women's reproductive rights and so on.

Yes, she competed against men in a sexist environment and that was a personal triumph for her. No one can take her individual achievements away for her, but they do not represent victories for feminism, women or equality.

FasterStronger Wed 10-Apr-13 13:10:25

unami people are given the tools, opportunities and resources to create a more equal society

what sort of tools, opportunities and resources ?

Unami Wed 10-Apr-13 13:25:17

Well, tools like legal rights for a start, such as the relaxation of the country's restrictive divorce laws - which Margaret Thatcher voted against. Legislation which would have improved the economic resources of low paid, working class women, such as the introduction of a minimum wage - which Margaret Thatcher voted against. Political opportunities, such as becoming a woman cabinet minister, but Margaret Thatcher never promoted another women into her cabinet.

Branleuse Wed 10-Apr-13 13:27:14

its not misogynistic to hate thatcher

BasketzatDawn Wed 10-Apr-13 17:33:38

Eddie Mair on Radio 4 PM has jsut deadpanned the line 'And how likely is it that Ding Dong the Witch is Dead will be top of the charts by Sunday?'. He's bloody brilliant IMO and I am still nearly wetting myself laughing. It kind of sums it all up.

LizzyDay Wed 10-Apr-13 17:47:56

SGB, I agree with you.

I find the whole street party / facebook celebrations a bit pathetic, juvenile and depressing. The time to celebrate was when she left office (and I did celebrate then).

The 'witch' tag is misogynistic.

grimbletart Wed 10-Apr-13 17:58:40

He's bloody brilliant IMO and I am still nearly wetting myself laughing. It kind of sums it all up.

You're easily amused aren't you? It might have been funnier if he had thought of the line himself. It's been all over the media the last two days.
Our Ed does though struggle to have an original thought.

BasketzatDawn Wed 10-Apr-13 18:13:35

flowersand biscuit for that naice grimbletart!! Some people online are such nasty lttle tossers even when they lack a penis. I have a warm sense of humour BTW, usually .... I just can't be bothered ignoring this, this time, but I'll not be contributing further to the thread. Life is too bloody short. Ding, dong, everyone! Eddie M IS funny IMO, but I only half listen, same as I only really half-read threads on MN. Most of what you hear on radio, same as on MN, is not that original really. So bloody what? It doesn't mean it aint entertaining. Ding dong again!!

FairPhyllis Wed 10-Apr-13 18:21:00

I can't help thinking what will young girls be making of all this. The past few days will have taught them that if you are a woman who aspires to lead you will have sexist abuse hurled at you even after your death.

betterthanever Wed 10-Apr-13 21:37:25

The 'witch' tag is misogynistic. agree and surprised that anyone posting on here would see it as humorous.

grimbletart Wed 10-Apr-13 22:31:19

I'm only an amateur nasty little tosser BasketzatDawn grin. People who mock a woman's death via Ding Dong the witch is dead - now they are seriously professional tossers.

BasilBabyEater Wed 10-Apr-13 22:32:05

"its not misogynistic to hate thatcher"

Of course it's not.

But it is misogynistic to express your hatred in misogynistic terms.

Anyone who is arguing that there isn't a great deal of misogyny in the celebrations of her death, is indulging in either wishful thinking or denial, or just plain disingenuousness.

Glosswitch did a brilliant blog post on it here

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Wed 10-Apr-13 22:40:02

Eddie Mair is entitled to his views, such as they are, but I'm not sure that via our publicly funded broadcaster is the right way to air them. Typical BBC inability to take on board any views from beyond the Hampstead/Islington axis.

BasilBabyEater Wed 10-Apr-13 22:43:19

And that's not to deny that lots of people have good reason to hate her and her memory.

But really, what was she, the White Witch of Narnia? She single-handedly destroyed the mining and steelwork industries, all on her own, without any support from the system which allowed her as a woman to sit on top of it as long as she served the agenda of the men she was surrounded by?

I doubt if there will be street parties for the death of Lawson, Heseltine, Baker, Howe, Lilley, Joseph, Nott et al. But all of them were equally responsible for the appalling legacy of Thatcherism. She couldn't have done it without them. A prime minister cannot function without the support of their cabinet and they were all equally responsible for what they did to our society. Not many people even remember Keith Joseph - but he was the architect of the industrial policies which wiped out the industries working class communities had relied on. No-one danced in the street when he died.

BasilBabyEater Wed 10-Apr-13 22:46:41

Eddie Mair didn't declare that those were his views KK.

He asked a question.

A legitimitate one.

Someone else asked it on the Today programme and the Tory started blabbering about how tasteless etc. it was to ask the question, but it's a valid one - the BBC is reflecting the fact that the internet is full of people who are not going to buy into the hagiography that would have been the way the BBC had dealt with this in pre-internet days. They simply cannot afford to have the huge disconnect between how the mainstream TV reports something like this and what people out in the wider world are saying.

FasterStronger Thu 11-Apr-13 05:41:33

I am trying to think if anyone else's death in old age has been celebrated like this? it does seem very odd that the first female PM is so uniquely reacted to.

also she is the symbol of the closure of the mining and steel industries, but does anyone actually think we would have them still if we had never has Thatcherism? she may have hastened their demise but she did not cause it.

of course she did set herself against very male organisations (unions and political parties) and win. I did read somewhere she would not mind the protests as people only disliked her as she has won and history had proven right.

Blair on the other hand did lead us into a war we could have avoided (aside from the dodgy dossier etc.) but will large numbers of people sing and joke when he dies?

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