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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Ways the TV series 'Friends' was anti-feminist

330 replies

darleneoconnor · 07/05/2011 12:23

comes from another thread

-There are lots of references to porn, which totally normalises it

  • The women are unhealthily skinny
  • The 'fat Monica' running joke
  • Joey's womanising
  • Phoebe being used as a womb for hire
  • Monica was riddiculed for dating someone 7 years younger than her but it was ok for Ross to date someone 10 years younger then him
  • All the girls' desire to get married (especially Monica's bridzillaness), as opposed to the boys
  • the anti-single mother rant Monica had at her wedding
  • Rachel's birth was very medicalised and disempowering (but in context of USA healthcare system I suppose)
  • Chandler having to be 'taught' how to have a relationship
  • Monicas getting slagged off for having 'lots' of lovers
  • In the episode where Rachel, Phoebe and Joey make an issue of earning less than the others no-one mentions the gender split
  • They do quite gender-specific jobs, Monica/cooking, Joey/acting (which is 2/3 male), Ross/Paleontologist, Phoebe/massuese, Rachel/waitress/fashion buyer, Chandler/IT(?)
  • they get a stripper for a stag do then glamourise it by her saying how well she is paid
  • Ross's homophobia and his lack of equal parenting of his child
  • Monica's obsession with cleaning
  • the rich Monica and Chandler adopting the babies of someone too poor to keep them herself
  • Chandler pretending to watch tv so he doesn't have to do his fair share of the thanksgiving cooking
  • The football game where Rachel is a 'useless' girl, Phoebe flashes her breasts to win a point and Monica is ridiculed for being as competitive as the boys

I'm sure there's more...

OP posts:
Original poster
darleneoconnor · 07/05/2011 12:25

(can you tell I'm pissed off with feminist threads getting de-railed?)

OP posts:
Choufleur · 07/05/2011 12:27

Take it you liked friends though (or at least watched it a lot) to know all that?

coastgirl · 07/05/2011 12:30

I love Friends but when we watch the later series we always take the piss out of the way Monica tries to be the 'perfect wife', as in buying porn for Chandler and trying to be cool with everything. Bleurgh. I think the women characters were better earlier on, especially Phoebe who kind of sold out in the later series. In the beginning she's super independent, quirky and doesn't care about other people's opinions of her.

But was it OK when Ross dated Elizabeth? They all made fun of him for it (although that bit still icks me out).

HandDivedScallopsrgreat · 07/05/2011 12:33

I found it interesting that throughout the [how ever many] series the men got fatter and the women got thinner Hmm.

Rachel and Ross's child just seems to bring herself up and has no impact on her parents life past the first couple of weeks.

When I was younger and watching it I didn't realise how sexist it was. It wasn't until I saw a few episodes about 6 months ago I was sat almost open-mouthed at the stereo-typing (amongst other things). However, I was always uncomfortable with both Phoebe and Rachel's pregnancy/birth experiences. And that was before I had experienced either.

Original poster
darleneoconnor · 07/05/2011 12:34

True, but his relationship with Elizabeth did lst longer than Monica's with Ethan. His was even more creepy in that he was her teacher. Then he still got tenure! a woman would have been sacked in the same position.

OP posts:
SybilBeddows · 07/05/2011 12:35

It seemed so cool in 1996 Sad

does it get more antifeminist later on (as well as crapper)?

sharbie · 07/05/2011 12:36

it was a comedy so perhaps these things were highlighted for comic effect??

Al0uiseG · 07/05/2011 12:36

It's fiction, not a mantra for how to live your life. While I anticipate being told to Fuck Off Hmm why are you even concerned about a work of fiction?

coastgirl · 07/05/2011 12:37

I think the birth experiences are fairly representative of the mainstream US approach to childbirth, from what I've heard from American friends. Not what we would consider the norm at all. I'm always amazed by them being gowned up and in stirrups at every ante-natal appointment - and by Rachel getting a routine ultrasound at what must be about 6 weeks! I've got no complaints about my NHS antenatal care but it's nothing like what you see there.

SybilBeddows · 07/05/2011 12:37

do you really not understand why feminists analyse cultural products, Alousie? Really?

Maybeitsbecause · 07/05/2011 12:38

I loved Friends and still like watching the re-runs, but yes, it had some dodgy elements to it. It portrayed a dynamic between men and women that rarely exists in RL. Monica and Rachel were so girly they were almost child-like. The guys were also like teenage boys, and this was all normalised.

Phoebe rocked in the earlier series', but when she started getting all gushy about that weird bloke she ended up marrying, she changed.

But hey, it was a comedy show. Comedy isn't PC, is it?

In other news, I loved Chandler. But if he had been real he would have been gay. Come on! My Gaydar beeped every time he came on screen. In fact, in my head, the series is till running and Chandler has left Monica for a hot Brazilian guy and is living in Greenwich Village Wink

Original poster
darleneoconnor · 07/05/2011 12:38

10 series 1994-2004

Yes, I hated the 'abandoned child' aspect. they did the preganacy as a cliffhanger storyline but then the baby disappeared.

There was an episode where Phoebe fulfilled the anti-child stereotype by complaining about the baby crying. (Of course Monica was great with it)

Also there was the one where Monica was going to use a sperm bank and become a single mother but they all talked her out of it. She missed her chance and ended up never having a biological child, but no-one seems to remember this previous incident.

OP posts:
SybilBeddows · 07/05/2011 12:41

in the spirit of not allowing derailing, here are a couple of useful links for people who genuinely don't understand why we would discuss a work of fiction, and would like to understand:

Sexual Politics
The Second Sex

Al0uiseG · 07/05/2011 12:41

I understand why analysis of real life situations is necessary, light entertainment is just that.

Hence the popularity of escapist romantic novels.

Maybeitsbecause · 07/05/2011 12:42

But escapist romantic novels are bullshit, aren't they?

If you want to escape to a world where big hairy Lords of the manor seduce comely milkmaids, or whatever, fine - but beware: I will analyse it Grin

Original poster
darleneoconnor · 07/05/2011 12:47

AlouiseG- not being one to gove empty threats i will tell you to fuck off but i will aslo say that programmes like Friends have an ENORMOUS effect on normal people's lives. The Rachel haircut? Remember half the female population having that in the late 90's? Then the uber-straight styles of the noughties?

People watch these shows and think they are an accurate reflection of real life. They expect their boyfriends to act like how they see the men behave on these shows. 'Friends' influenced the mindset of a generation- the coffee houses now on every high street, women delaying marriage to have careers, the concept of friends being more important than family- these are major cultural shifts and this show was part of that. If it's anti-feminist (it is) then it has a role in society being anti-feminist.

OP posts:
HandDivedScallopsrgreat · 07/05/2011 12:48

Blimey Al0uiseG - you don't think that non-fiction popular culture has an influence on a person's psyche and behaviour? And that influence can be analysed? How strange.

MadameOvary · 07/05/2011 12:51

I loved Friends, but thanks to you I will never look at it in the same way again!
And I thank you for that.
Feeling a bit daft that despite my degree in English literature, including a lot of Feminist Lit Crit, somehow I never applied it to this good 'ol harmless "entertainment" Confused
Will be lurking around a lot more now.

valiumbandwitch · 07/05/2011 12:54

I agree with you Darleneoconner, I was Irish living in London during the 90s and Friends made me feel like I should have this really strong group of friendships of mixed sex. I probably didn't appreciate that my flatmates were decent blokes although totally unsophisticaed, and my work friends were great girls because they wouldn't have mixed well with any of the other people I knew. Maybe I'm not explaining it well, but I felt like my individual friends didn't count as much because they weren't a big group who all knew each other.

MortenHasNiceShirts · 07/05/2011 12:56

Surely Monica being a chef isn't stereotypical? Aren't the vast majority of chefs men?

balia · 07/05/2011 12:57

I don't have an encyclopaedic knowledge of 'Friends' but on the subject of the effect of such shows on people's lives - I do remember an incident when one of the female characters hit a male character (was it maybe Rachel & Ross? Not sure) and I don't think that is any more acceptable than using stereotypical job references etc.

StewieGriffinsMom · 07/05/2011 12:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

valiumbandwitch · 07/05/2011 13:00

Ross went out with a black woman once!

RitaMorgan · 07/05/2011 13:01

Do you remember Rachel wanted to hire a male nanny to look after the neglected baby, and Ross was very uncomfortable that he would want to do a woman's job and not be gay Hmm

HandDivedScallopsrgreat · 07/05/2011 13:03

True Morten. Although the Hooters type restaurant she worked in for a while was pretty shit!