Why should men be feminists?

[David51]

I have been asked to go along to a union meeting to give a talk about why men should be feminists. This has been asked for by female members of the union.

I can think of a few reasons myself but would be grateful for any suggestions.

What kind of arguments have you used to convince male partners or colleagues and were they successful?

[Rohanda]

which union is it? How come you have been asked?

[David51]

I have my own reasons which are convincing to me but will they convince others? Feminism ought to be a no-brainer once you accept that (a) everyone should have the same rights and (b) women as a group are being denied their rights in all kinds of ways.

But as you know feminism is the F-word for a lot of people including women so apparently these theoretical points are not enough to win the argument

[TheGrumpalump]

The most success I ever had with my XP (it wasn't a great deal of success, hence why he is an ex ) was to discuss the effects of sexism and misogyny on our daughter, now and in the future. I think he sees sexism as something that no longer exists in our society, but when given examples of it still existing and how it could potentially impact on our daughter, it at least made him think.

I think you need to a) demonstrate the ongoing sexism and misogyny in our society (as many people do feel that sexism has been erradicated, and even that women now have it "better" than men) and then b) show how this effects on men, by making them think about how this sexism and misogyny impacts on their wives, daughters, sisters, mothers etc. Make them really think about how they would feel were these women who are so important to them were treated in such a manner, and then extrapolate to women as a group.

[Rohanda]

David - so which union is it? and how come you are doing it please?

[SardineQueen]

Talking about the situation worldwide rather than just concentrating on the UK is effective. Many people question whether there is anything more to do here () but when confronted with the situation worldwide I think most people would be hard pressed to say feminism isn't important, and that the things that are going on should be of concern to everyone not just women.

[David51]

Rohanda, I recently met someone who is a union rep via a feminist group & she made the suggestion. I can't remember the name of the union.

Do you have a particular concern about this?

[iwerta]

I would say that the feminist movement has to have men in it if it is to succeed. If social and political changes are to be achieved then there has to be as larger and broader support as possible. If you exclude half the population from the movement then you will find it very hard to achieve this.

[Rohanda]

David - no particular concern! just intrigued.

[David51]

Thanks, this is very helpful feedback.

Grumpalump I am sure you are right about the 'sexism is so over' attitude & the need to show how the issues affect people's own wives, daughters etc

Rohanda I think it's UNISON but not sure.

[HerBeX]

I would say that men should be feminists because ultimately, it will lead to better relationships with the men and women in their lives, so happier lives for them and a fairer more just society for everyone.

They will have to give up their privilege and that is uncomfortable and unpleasant, but the long term benefits of living in a more just society outweigh the short term unpleasantness of giving up your privilege, although many white South Africans wouldn't agree with me.

I think you just need to look at the divorce rate to see just how unhappy the patriarchal model of men and women's interaction makes them. We need to develop a different model which ensures that both partners can be happy together. It's not a coincidence that married men are the happiest group and single women are happier than married women; nor that women are more likely to initiate relationship break-up, than are men.

The other thing about feminism, is that it would allow new parameters for masculinity. At the moment, men and women are socialised into roles that they might not choose if given more of a range of choices. I think men feel an enormous weight of expectation upon them and popular culture only serves to underline that. If you look at the media, Hollywood etc., the way men are portrayed is absolutely fucking ridiculous. They are practically God like. When they're punched in the face, they don't register the sheer pain of it as they would do in real life, they simply don't notice it as they merrily punch back and annihilate all their opponents. When they are challenged by the women in their lives, they rise to the challenge easily and are immediately forgiven for whatever outrageous behaviour they are being challenged on (I've just been to see Tooth Fairy ). When they assert their boundaries, as they do often, unlike men in RL who have to interact with other people who may not be bit-players to their lives, people notice and respect it and don't try and breach their boundaries anymore. This vision of masculinity is an absolutely impossible one to achieve and yet men have this template which is really aggressively pushed and which sets them up to feel failures IMO. A feminist society would do away with all that aggressive masculinity and just allow men to be men - whatever version of it whcih suits them, not some pre-determined role.

Robert Jensen is good on this, it might be useful:

[HerBeX]

And I think that lots of men spend quite a lot of time feeling ever so slightly scared that they will be "found out" as not measuring up to the version of masculinity that patriarchy offers them - I'm sure Jensen talks about this in that thing I linked to. Getting rid of patriarchy would free men from that fear.

[David51]

It's not a coincidence that married men are the happiest group and single women are happier than married women; nor that women are more likely to initiate relationship break-up, than are men.

Herbex do you have a reference for these findings?

re visions of masculinity - this also has relevance for gay men of course. We are stil waiting for the day when a premiership footballer is able to come out without fear of the consequences

[FlamingoBingo]

What about going through the privelege test with them, David? Will find a link for you in a sec.

[FlamingoBingo]

this is a good start

[HerBeX]

No, don't have links David, it's just those stats that are always quoted everywhere. I know that the University of London did a study in 2004 which confirmed that (although i don't think they're the only one) and I expect the women filing for divorce is govt figures - mabe ONS?

[David51]

thanks for the feminism101 link

[sethstarkaddersmackerel]

I just asked dh why he is a feminist. He said (very articulately) 'it's not fair, is it, and it suggests women are like, you know, sort of other if you think they don't want to have a career and a social life and stuff. And more selfishly, she might divorce you in 20 years if she thinks she's not getting a fair deal.'

good luck!

[HerBeX]

Actually IMO that's a perfectly valid reason for men to be feminists Seth - enlightened self interest.

[Youllskimmer]

Here's a link to a good piece on patriarchy. It made it a bit clearer for me.

zingerella.livejournal.com/73987.html

[JaneS]

Almost all the men I know who're feminists didn't need convincing - it was just as obvious to them as it is to me. I find that quite hopeful, though maybe not helpful for your talk!

I think the 'think what you'd feel if it was your daughter' argument is an oldie but a goodie.

[niceday]

Everything is based on self interest.
So men should support feminism, because it is in their interest.
Women will be happier. They will be able to make the choices that reflect their individuality, and bring to this world the gifts that the nature has given them. They will feel safe.
So the world will be a better place for men to live in :)

[AyeRobot]

Better sex life

[Youllskimmer]

If the last two posts were explained to men I think feminism would get a lot more support!