Another castration question and marking!

[leolion]

I'd be grateful for people's views on the following. I have a 2.5 years old male welsh springer. We decided against castration as we had been told that it can make dogs more skittish and nervy. However, we have developed a problem with him marking. He is great in our house, but anywhere else that is indoors, he immediately cocks his leg.

The last straw was yesterday when we decided to take him to my mum's for the first time in months (we'd stppoed because he marked there before). She has a female cocker spaniel. I kept him on his lead and he was under supervision for the whole time.....until I went to the loo and he ran upstairs and cocked his leg on my mum's dry clean only bed spread. We now cannot take him to anybody's house, and our previous dog sitter has refused to have him in her house, which i can understand. Would getting him castrated stop this behaviour, and in your opinion, does castrating have any other effects on behaviours- positive or negative?

Thanks in advance.

[SpicyPear]

I looked into pros and cons when we had our boy done and I seem to remember reading that it 's not very effective at stopping marking in older dogs. Only a certain % will stop as it's now a behavioural habit. Will try to find a linky later.

[bellasuewow]

Our two previous younger dogs marked like crazy especially if bitches were in season but they didn't mark inside. This stopped overnight when they got done and they calmed down a lot in temperament

[SharpLily]

It's irresponsible to leave him intact. Get him done as soon as possible - the longer you leave it, the more this will become learned behaviour. The health (and social) benefits of castration far outweigh the supposed disadvantages.

[curlew]

On what planet is it OK to keep an entire dog as a pet? Get him castrated and join the civilized world.

[Lilcamper]

Totally acceptable to keep a dog intact for behavioural reasons. Neutering a dog will not stop marking if it is a habit. Neutering a dog with fear issues can make them worse.

OP ask your vet about chemical castration. You can see if it would make any difference and it is reversable should it make his fear worse.

[leolion]

Thanks for the input everybody. sharp- can you elaborate please? What are the advantages an disadvantages in your view? I'd be grateful for any further input you could give.

Curlew- your comment is not helpful in the slightest.

[SharpLily]

Well castration is generally known for making dogs dogs calmer rather than more skittish (it should eliminate or at least reduce aggressively 'male' behavioural issues), and of course you remove the risk of testicular cancer and related diseases. There are of course no guarantees that marking will stop but the likelihood is that it will and you will allowed to be able to take him out again! He's less likely to run off searching for horny bitches (which puts his own and others' safety at risk) and you avoid the risk of unplanned litters.

The only good reason to leave a dog intact is because you wish to breed from him, and the only acceptable reason to breed is because you have a particularly good example that would further the excellence of his breed, which should also involve health and temperament testing going back generations and should not be undertaken by amateurs.

[Lilcamper]

Sorry Sharp, I disagree. My 2 year old dog is intact and will stay that way, I have no intention of breeding from him and I am responsible enough that an accidental mating won't happen.

I was advised to keep him intact by my vet, my trainer, one of the UK's top veterinary behaviourists and several behaviour consultants. He has random fear reactivity towards some people and can be anxious in certain situations. Taking away his testosterone could make him a complete nervous wreck and I am not going to chance that.

[SharpLily]

Then I would say your dog is the exception to a very well known rule and I have never come across a vet or animal behaviourist who would recommend against castration.

I'm sorry if this appears rude but I do also think it's deeply irresponsible - you claim an accidental mating won't happen and while I'm sure you are careful and I hope it doesn't occur, shit actually does happen. The majority of sensible dog owners don't go through the expense and other inconvenience of the process just for the sake of it.

[curlew]

I do feel sorry for dogs that are never allowed off the lead.

[Lilcamper]

My dog isn't an exception. And it is becoming more well known that neutering is not a good idea in an anxious dog. He gets plenty of off lead exercise. www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/neutering-what%E2%80%99s-behaviour-got-do-it

[curlew]

So if he is allowed off the lead, how can you guarantee no "accidents"?

[Lilcamper]

Because I am a responsible owner who politely puts my dog back on his lead when I see another dog/walker/jogger etc.

[SharpLily]

I'm sure there will be plenty of people who will defend your point of view, Lilcamper, but I've already explained that I believe otherwise and, fortunately, this seems to be the majority view. I have had an anxious dog and I hate to think how much worse he's have been if he'd had to cope with testosterone too.

Sorry, leolion, if it's not what you want to hear, but I'm always horrified and pretty disgusted when I hear about people refusing to neuter their pets. However I think you should probably discuss the situation with a few different vets and animal behaviourists to get a professional opinion.

[SharpLily]

Because I am a responsible owner who politely puts my dog back on his lead when I see another dog/walker/jogger etc.

And you can guarantee that you can run faster than your dog when he gets a whiff of a bitch on heat?

[Lilcamper]

I know my dog, I know how he reacts, he is trained and his training is ongoing. It wouldn't happen.

[SharpLily]

Wow. I feel the same about my dog but I'm not deluded enough to take those kind of risks.

[toboldlygo]

I work in a veterinary practice and on several occasions now the vets have declined to castrate a dog on behavioural grounds. It is becoming more well known that it is not a one size fits all fix for behavioural issues and can in fact make a dog worse in some situations. The health benefits can be outweighed by negatives in certain breeds as well.

OP, I'm sorry you seem to have been jumped on for a perfectly reasonable query. In my experience castration later in life does not always stop marking as it's as likely to be a habit as a sexual behaviour. As above, temporary chemical sterilisation may give you an idea of whether castration would help.

[SharpLily]

If people didn't leave castration so late the behavioural issues shoudn't be a problem!

[SharpLily]

*shouldn't, sorry!

[Lonecatwithkitten]

At a very large meeting of vets 2 years ago the consensus was that for male dogs the risks and benefits of castration are very even and decisions should be made on an individual dog basis.

For castration
If you have no testicles you won't get testicular cancer
Reduced risk of benign prostatic hyperplasia
Less wandering behaviours

Against castration
General anaesthetic
Increased nervous behaviour in already nervous dogs
In large breeds increased risk on bone cancer and prostatic cancer

Often marking and 'humping' are learned behaviours and not actually sexual so in these cases castration won't help. For any behavioural problem I strongly advocate training sometimes in conjunction with neutering, but sometimes training alone.

In female dogs the benefits are clear cut and huge. This is not the case in male dogs. A good chat with your vet about risks and benefits is the best way forward so you can make a fully informed consent.

I have my male dog castrated, but that's because he spends a lot of his life at the clinic and I don't want him going mental when bitches in heat are brought in.

[RosegoldRuby]

We had our 3 year old welsh springer castrated last year and have always regretted it. Our vet didn't recommend it, in fact she said only have it done if you have any problems with him, pursuing bitches and the like.

We didn't have any of those problems, as you prob know OP, welshies seem to be a bit under sexed, must be why they're a rare breed. I did meet someone walking their on-heat bitch in the forest and despite my dog being off-lead he took know notice.

My OH got it into his head that our dog would stop marking everywhere outside, if he was neutered. The vet said dog wouldn't stop as this was now learned behaviour. At my OH's insistence we went ahead.

Our dog still marks every other tree in the forest. As sexual behaviour was never a problem there was no change there. His character is the same, but he's slowed down. He's put on weight, although I've cut his food drastically. Also his coat has changed from deep red silk to wooly texture and a faded colour. He seems to have aged 5 years in the last one.

We really regret having it done. If I was you I'd see a behaviourist over the indoor marking as castration probably won't make any difference to that.

Ignore the angry comments BTW. I intend to

[toboldlygo]

The last pup declined was six months old. His behavioural issues were a product of some very obvious hereditary and environmental factors. His balls had nothing to do with it!

I am not anti-neutering - my own dog is castrated, I arrange for early castration of dogs that come through the breed rescue I volunteer for and I am very vocal in support of routine spaying of bitches which is a whole different kettle of fish. However, we know now there is more to castration than previously assumed and it is misguided to recommend it for every single dog.

[tabulahrasa]

There was also a study last year (I think, could be a bit older) linking early neutering to joint problems in large breeds - early being before the growth plates have closed at about 18 months to 2 years in those breeds and from 8 months in smaller breeds.

Early castration may prevent behavioural issues that have a sex based behaviour - but things like fear aggression tend to be brought on by events rather than just appear at a certain age.

I always neuter, it's just easier, but, you get plenty of well trained, responsibly owned entire males who never impregnate another dog...not all entire males will disappear at the first hint of a bitch in heat.

I've never found that castration stops scent marking, not even with rescue dogs that were done at 6 months old.

But, you could try chemical castration if you have a reason to believe castration would negatively affect your dog and then you'd know one way or the other and you could contact a behaviourist as well and see what advice they can offer you.

[Lilcamper]

Thank goodness I wasn't a lone voice. And yes I do know my dog, tasty liver cake trumps a bitch in heat everytime.