Advice needed - 9 month old with food/resource aggression (sorry-long!)

[superdoodle]

I am struggling with my 9 month old cross (Retriever/Poodle) and need some objective opinions on what to do.

I should start by saying that he is in many ways a lovely dog. I never thought that I would say this but I am seriously considering at the moment whether I am able to keep him, due to safety concerns.

My Pup has received nothing but love and attention from us since he arrived at 8 weeks, but with hindsight I think he arrived with some "issues" around food. For example, he has never got excited when it is feeding time, and shows lots of nervous unhappy behaviour around his bowl, such as his tail between his legs etc.

He first showed aggression with food at around 5 months, when he would growl and bark if given "high value" food such as chicken etc.

I took advice from my trainer who recommended a citronella collar - bad mistake! It made his anxiety far worse and has escalated the problem in my opinion.

So I took the pup to our vet, and asked for a referral to a behaviourist. She has done a home visit and set out a programme to follow to try and reprogramme the pup's anxiety issues around food. I've been following the programme for approximately 4 weeks.

The trouble is this......pup is now showing the same aggressive behaviour around other random items, such as particular toys or usually anything he has got his teeth on that he wants to keep and shouldn't have. I used to feel in control of the issue as I could prevent it by not giving any "high value" food, but it now seems that the aggression can be triggered by many different (and unpredictable) items.

I'll be totally honest here. I find his behaviour frightening.

I am also worried about my children. I am prepared to continue to put the time and effort into the programme but it could take many months to show results. This really worries me. He's a very large and powerful dog. I shudder to think what would happen if he is set off by one of my kids and I can't intervene quickly enough to avoid a disaster.

Don't know what to do really. I do my very best to control the pup's environment to minimise the aggression, but real life means that these situations seem to be flaring up more and more frequently.

In RL most people I know think that I have done everything possible, but should not take the risk of pup harming my DC.

I never thought that I would consider re-homing any pet, let alone a dog that is much wanted in our family.

What would you do?

[minimuu]

Please please do not worry - this can be sorted, usually pretty easily.

Never ever take anything away from your puppy. BUT do always swop what he has for something even better. So if he has the most favourite toy ever then approach him with a bit of livercake.

First stage Depending on how he reacts - you can either put the liver cake next to him and see if he releases the toy, keep feeding him liver cake. Do not at theis point remove or take away the toy - just ignore it. Do this several times a day - I can not say enough do not take away the treasured item.

Second stage He will very quickly work out then when you approach him you give him great things, better than he already has - he will relax and will soon be ready for you to "swop" items. This time you ca give him his yummy treat, remove his toy but then give it back to him after he has eaten the treat.

His little mind is loving this, you give me food and then give me back my great toy - yay!

Soon he will relax so much he will not care if you take away his toy etc because he knows you will give him something much better. Always swop items do not remove and you will have no trouble in a few weeks.

Remember in dog training if you want results quickly - go slowly so do not rush this, take it gently but it WILL work - it always does.
If he takes the liver cake easi

[Flatbread]

I am no dog behaviour psychologist, but first of all, feel no guilt. Your job is to protect your children foremost, and if that means rehoming the dog, so be it, do not feel you have failed. You have made a great effort, and kudos to you!

Now to the issue of food and other aggression. This is my take, so take it as one person's experience. My dog tried this as a wee pup. If she growled when I held her bone, I said no in a deep voice. Asked her to sit, down and then gave her the bone. The minute she growled at anything I was giving her, holding or taking away, i confronted the situation, and didn't let her get away with it. Since she was a wee thing, I had no fear of her as such, and had no problems being close to her and holding the bone right under her nose and saying no, or holding it till she did a down posture or whatever command to 'earn' the high value treat.

Now I can do anything with her, take food from her mouth, throw her over my shoulder if we are in mud or poke around her bum area (!) or gums while bathing or checking her and she is completely limp and accepting. I think she feels safe around me and I feel safe around her.

You dog is older, so there is the fear that he might react unpredictably and bite. The thing is they can smell fear and when you are not calm and assertive and easily take advantage of the situation...maybe your dp can help here or someone who is not afraid of those sharp teeth?

Regarding the tail between the legs, my dog always does that, whether she is alone at the feeding bowl, or if I am fiddling around, adding or removing stuff from it. I think of that as being relaxed and off guard around the food.

[Flatbread]

Ok, just read minimuu. Ignore what I said, she is the expert here.

[minimuu]

I am a dog behaviourist and personally think this comment from Flatbread is the one to concentrate on if you follow her method - "the fear that he might react unpredictably and bite.

I can assure you will not get bitten by the method I have posted

Flatbread read The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson and it will help to illustrate C milans ways are rubbish.

Tail between legs is definitely not a relaxed position for a retriever/poodle cross.

I would be very worried if my dogs were "and she is completely limp and accepting" a shut down dog is something I would avoid at all costs.

Sorry I don't mean to sound critical but your post did concern me.

[Flatbread]

But rethinking this, minimuu, I can see that if a dog is being stubborn, what you are saying is best. I did that to teach my dog to return the ball when we are playing. Treat for ball, umpteen times till she got it.

But in this case, the dog is showing aggression and is growling. How will your suggestion help with the aggression bit, the guarding is just a symptom of that, not the root problem, as I read the situation...

[minimuu]

Cross posted - not an expert Flatbread - always learning but I do have loads of experience with these issues.

[minimuu]

No the aggression is a result of anxiety and feeling uncertain. So if the dog feels confident there is no need for the dog to show "aggression". Not really a word I would use in this situation.

So if you think someone is going to mug you when you are walking on your own and a person approaches you - you will react negatively either run away or confront the person to make them go away.

If you are in an area where you are completely relaxed and feel safe that noone is going to mug you - you will smile and say goodmorning when someone approaches you.

Same situation but completely different behaviour because of your emotional state.

Put the dog in situation one - growling
put the dog in situation two - waggy tail

[superdoodle]

Hi ladies,

Thanks for your thoughtful replies.

Minimu - I appreciate where you are coming from in your approach. But when he is growling and barking because he has a ball/shoe/dug up plant(!) I don't feel safe going anywhere near him! Should I just throw the treats from afar? I have to be honest - when he's like this I just leave the room until he's lost interest and calmed down.

[RedwingWinter]

I want to second what Minimuu said. I've got two adult rescue dogs, one of which arrived with lots of issues, and I taught them to trade when I wanted to get things off them. People laugh at me at the dog park when my husky is running off with someone else's ball and I trade him a treat for it, but it works, the dog is happy, and I get the ball back and then play with my husky so that he's not missed out on fun. It works really well and there is no risk associated with it!

Also I would never tell a dog off for growling. How else is it supposed to let me know it's not happy? The risk of teaching a dog not to growl is that one day it might progress straight to a bite. At least if there's a growl, you've got some warning and can act appropriately.

[minimuu]

yes to start with do throw the treats for him and ignore the growling. Do not take the toy. Do make sure they are yummy treats, not boring old kibble, cheese bits of chicken hotdog etc.

By the way what do you feed him on?

[superdoodle]

He's on bog standard JWB. I used to mix it in with Nature Diet but that started triggering the growling/barking so I leave it out now.

I would love to be able to give him a juicy bone but don't feel that I can at the moment.

[Flatbread]

Minimuu, she is full of energy and a stubborn mule to boot. But she completely accepts dh and me doing anything to her. She trusts us to keep her safe, and has no problem with us holding her close, lifting her up, touching her all over. She still is a naughty girl and will try to disobey, if she can get away with it, especially if fascinating cows or sheep are in the vicinity.

The growling bit is different. I would not accept her growling at me, ever. Luckily she only tried it twice as a pup, once over a toy and once with a bone. In each case I withheld the treasure till she 'earned' it by following a command, usually a submissive down.

But like I said, mine is just based on my experience with a particular dog. You are the expert here, so would definitely recommend op goes with your advice.

[minimuu]

You are right not to give him a bone yet - that would be too much for him and you!

Another great article here that may explain things better than me

guarding link

Do not panic though - this really can be sorted by the above method.

[minimuu]

Flatbread growling is not a sign of aggression - it is a warning that things are not right.

A truly aggressive dog will not growl - they will go quiet, still and then attack - sometimes not even quiet and still just attack.

A growling dog may feel the need to take the warning further if things are still worrying them, scaring them etc.

How can a dog communicate to us? They have loads of ways but unfortunately humans are very slow on the uptake. Growling is one that is mistaken frequently.

If your dog is now in a position that she is not comfortable with - what can she do - she knows growling will get punishment so she will stay as still and quiet until she is pushed into a situation she can not deal with and then who knows what her options are.


Down is not a submissive position for a dog - it is a calming position.

Does your dog yawn or lick her lips when looking at you, does she slightly tilt her head away ever, or scratch?

[Flatbread]

Minimuu, why should a dog growl if you are holding a prized treat? What are they trying to communicate? If my dog wants what I am eating, she will go to a down position, sigh, and give me a mournful look. No problems, I will share my goodies and we both share a yum experience. But if she stood, glaring at me and growling, no way would I reward that!

Same with the ball. If she was stubborn about returning it, she would get a treat in exchange. But I am pretty sure I wouldn't do that if she growled.

My dog is a real bomsy around me and pretty much everyone she meets, especially old ladies who seem to adore her. Regarding your question on her expression - If she is lying next to me or on my tummy while we are watching tv, she might yawn (as I do) before we both fall asleep. She sometimes looks at me in the face when she is trying to read my expression or is begging for something. Otherwise she often looks sideways, especially when she knows I want my space.

Anyway, I must admit that I do like Cesar Milan. I am agnostic about any approach as such, but a lot of what he says makes sense. Calm assertive energy, reward good behaviour and correct the bad.

[minimuu]

This dog is growling when the prized treat is being removed. I am not rewarding the growling at all - I am putting the dog in a situation where she does not need to growl.


Sideways is a real calming signal - a sign your dog is stressed and uncomfortable and needs to calm herself down - I would really want to know why my dogs would need to try to calm themselves down by being around me.


calming signals explained

I agree reward good behaviour always but not so simple to just say correct the bad.

[RedwingWinter]

Also growling is not necessarily negative. Some dogs have a play growl that they make when happy and excited. Our Dog2 has a play growl and I've heard it from golden retrievers before. It's at a different pitch than an angry/upset growl and carries a different level of excitement. It's hard to describe. It is clearly different if you're paying attention, but if you don't know about it then it can be misunderstood.

[Flatbread]

I totally agree about the play growl. I think ot is a full body gesture. I don't think ot the op's case she is describing a play growl.

I think, like children, different dogs needs varying types of incentives and corrections. And agree, minimuu that incentives are the easy part, and corrections more difficult.

I think with my dog, I understand her body language. I just know when she has been naughty, when she is relaxed and when she is stressed. The looking away when she is lying down at my feet, is not a sign of being nervous at all. Where should be looking all the time, at my face?

In fact, I have just come back from massaging her teats with olive oil, because they are sore she is completely relaxed, lying on her back, with a smile on her face. She licks my lips, i can kiss here mouth (gross, I know).

But she knows who is the resource controller, so as to speak. When dinner is served, she has to sit and wait for a signal before going to her food, and the signal may well come a good five minutes later.

And that is the key, it seems from op, that the dog is challenging or uncertain about who is the boss. And if op can let the dog know that she is, and the dog does not need to worry about guarding, then the tension will go away. I am not sure that rewarding will solve the underlying problem in this case of no one being in charge or the dog thinking he needs to control his environment.

[RedwingWinter]

I wasn't trying to say the OPs dog was making a play growl; I agree it's resource-guarding. Was just trying to be clear about what a growl can mean, didn't intend to muddy the waters!

[superdoodle]

I'm sure it's not a play growl! I've heard that one and it's very different......

Don't know what to say about the Pup not knowing who's boss. He is generally fairly obedient (for a 9 month old!). There is no growling etc with his usual feed in a bowl using boring old kibble (so it's not kicked off by any food I give him).

Is it really as simple as him not knowing who's the boss? Is it not more the case that he does know I'm the boss, and worries that I have the power to take away the very thing that he dearly wants to have? This is so confusing....

[minimuu]

Flatbread do please look at alternative methods of dog psychology. Jean Donaldson is a great place to start.

Dominance is total tosh and has been discredited for many years now - no dog wants to dominant their owner or be boss.

Just checked my records over the last 15 years of having guarding dogs referred to me. 473 dogs all sorted with the method at the beginning of the thread. No owners bitten, no dogs dominating the world! and no dogs rehomed or regressed - that works for me

TBH what a waste of a training opportunity to just make your dog wait for their dinner, how about making them work for all their meal and hand feed and give them lots of training opportunities.

I can hear you exclaim in horror - fed by hand!

[RedwingWinter]

Super, it's the second thing you said. He worries that you might take away the thing he dearly wants ...

[minimuu]

Superdoodle it really is not confusing. It has nothing at all to do with being boss, needing you to be boss or dominating you - that is all total bollocks (sorry Flatbread but it is total tosh). If you want evidence I can give you loads I have studied animal and especially dog behaviour to phd level so have the academic material to bore you to tears if you need it

Please follow my first post for a few days throw the treats down if you want to and let me know what happens to his behaviour.

[Flatbread]

Minimuu, I do feed my dog by hand (especially when she has left her vegetables in her bowl) and her afternoon meal is a training snack. If she gets kibble on occasion, i scatter, hide it in the garden and she loves 'hunting' for it!

But I think obedience and discipline do have their place as well. The five minute wait is not to torture her, but because I usually cook her meals and something might be too hot, and needs to cool. And she is calm while she waits.

A dog may not want to dominate their owner, but dogs do get protective e.g., over food or not letting others get closer to their owners. This to me, is about unclear boundaries, and the solution is to the dog know you are in control and they do not need to guard anything (unless you ask them to). Not sure how treating them for bad behaviour will solve things. But I will read the book, you recommend.

[minimuu]

I don't want to sound harsh but I know you are wrong Flatbread and it is no problem to me at all - but I don't really want to waste anymore time discussing the issues when they are out of date, wrong and proven to be damaging to dogs.

I spend my days sorting out issues caused by this type of theory daily and really am too tired to continue a discussion when I know I am correct.

However if you are interested do research more on how dogs learn. Read the links I have posted on dog guarding and they explain it all in detail nothing to do with unclear boundaries or needing to be in control.

You are not understanding so re read my posts if you do want to understand but I will say again - It is not rewarding bad behaviour it is changing the inappropriate behaviour.

(I am often wrong but on this I know I am correct)