So how much 'rudeness' is normal and to tolerated...? And when/how do you say enough is enough?!

[misspollysdolly]

That's it really...

DD is pre-teen really at 12 (God help us all) and has started to be pretty rude at times - just a whole load of attitude mostly but when challenged about her rudeness or attitude retorts (rudely, of course) 'well I didn't know I was being rude' or if asked why she's said or done something usually she can think if no better answer than 'I don't know' in a shruggy shouldered manner. If she does have more of an answer it usually involves heaping the blame on me or DH for whatever pre-teen drama has befallen her. Today she complained to DH that she was cold. He pointed out - fairly matter of factly and not too confrontationally - that she probably should've brought a coat (as suggested by me). She then gave him a mouthful about how she'd hoped for some sympathy and not an answer like that and how horrid he was, yada yada, blah.

So how much is normal? Is any rudeness tolerated or does all undesirable behaviour have consequences? How do you respond when the naughty step is a distant dream?! I hope for children who are polite and can conduct themselves pretty well through life. Should I ever overlook teen rudeness or is it my job to be pointing it out and doling out the consequences...come what may?! MPD

[seeker]

I never tolerate rudeness. I don't see why people say "that's just how it is with teenagers". It only is if you let it. I never do anything if I am not asked properly, I stomp on bad manners between siblings, and I don't provide food for people with bad table manners. But I am the strictest parent in the world!

[Foxinsocks]

My teen/pre teen is an angel compared to her 10 year old brother

I don't think it's an age/hormonal thing at all though dd does get a bit crampy and more tired when she's pre menstrual, she still doesn't get rude and grumpy like her brother!

[misspollysdolly]

seeker I think I'm a bit in love... - you are speaking my language. I don't want to tolerate it either but fear - as she our eldest (of four) that people will think me naive for considering this is anything other than normal.

[ledkr]

Im with seeker I dont fecking tolerate it either.I bought up 3 boys on my own and ruled with a rod of iron,they are all in their 20's now and still not rude to me. My dd is10 and is attempting to be a cheeky moo at the moment.She will rue the day
There is a growing trend amongst parents to leave them to it.We have friends who talk about the amount of swearing their dc and friends do in their house they say they cant help it. I pointed out that they could or they would do it in the classroom. I will be having no swearing in my house from dd.
Its our job to challenge bad manners or rudeness,i think.

[Fairyliz]

I see where you are coming from seeker but it just such hard work! By the time I have been to work, cooked dinner, cleaned, run kids to part time jobs helped with homework, looked after elderly mum I am exhausted so tend just to ignore rudeness as I am too tired for another emotional strop.
not the right thing to do I know but it's the only way I can get through life!

[DexterTheCat]

My DS1 is 11 nearly 12 and used to really laid back. No trouble at all. However we seem to have pre teens and I find his rudeness jaw dropping. However I never tolerate it and always tackle it at the time. A simple 'do not speak to me like that' usually results in him going into a sulk which he eventually emerges from but at least he knows his behaviour isn't acceptable.

However he only seems to do this with us (his parents and brother) and is his usual polite compliant self at school ( if the recent parent's evening is to be believed!!).

He does seem to have a split personality though and can be so kind and thoughtful with us so maybe all is not lost.

[GnomeDePlume]

You dont have to just have a zero tolerance of rudeness, you can have an active expectation of politeness. Are you all polite to each other? My DCs do say please and thank you not just to us but also to each other. They do remind each other!

It isnt really such hard work as you stop any rudeness and sniping the second it starts so you dont have to live with increasing levels and then decide when you have had enough. When things are working well everyone is being polite to each other!

[seeker]

Absolutely. Everyone in thnfqmily has to treat each other with politeness qnd respect.

Doesn't mean that th can't call each other smelly poos, though. They just have to stop doing it when asked.

[mumbilical]

I am holding out for politeness - you get what you settle for.

We have had a 14 year old who we have had since he was 12. He is incredibly rude, possibly because he was allowed to be in the past. It has got particularly bad over the past few days - I could easily have written this post. I sympathise with dexter - jaw-dropping is exactly how I would describe his rudeness.

We had it out on Saturday, and I told him he had to answer me when I spoke to him, not mumble, roll his eyes and then say I SAID YES FOR GODS SAKE ARE YOU DEAF OR RETARDED (charming) when I repeat the question. If we are actually having a heated debate he will try and slam the door in my face and tell me to eff off.

I don't stand for it, but still, as fairy says it's bloody hard work to keep upbraiding them.

One thing I always say to him is that I won't have DS (2) hear anyone speak to his mother like that. That gets to him a bit because he loves him so much.

Tis awful.

[jalopy]

I'm with seeker. I've got 3 teenagers. There's no backchat or rudeness in our house.

[misspollysdolly]

Coming back to this thread in a 'Furthermore...' kind of way. DD has confessed tonight that while she was very angry having been told off for rudeness on Sunday she went up to her room and tore up a photograph of me and DH. I am so sad about this as it was a really old photo - unlikely to be replaced - of which there are not many. It is also a really lovely photo, of us in our before marriage days, looking just really relaxed and happy. It is a happy picture and looking at it has always made me feel so. Now it's gone. How to respond? How to express my sadness without lecturing and labouring the point.

[GnomeDePlume]

One of the hardest lessons for teenagers to learn is that sometimes 'sorry' isnt enough. It's a growing up lesson.

Tell your DD as you wrote it here:

'I am so sad about this as it was a really old photo - unlikely to be replaced - of which there are not many. It is also a really lovely photo, of us in our before marriage days, looking just really relaxed and happy. It is a happy picture and looking at it has always made me feel so. Now it's gone.'

Tell her just that and then walk away and make yourself a cup of tea. Your DD is old enough to understand how sad she has made you.

[LivingDead]

I would say no rudeness is to be tolerated, I'm 30 and wasn't rude to my parents (siblings might be another matter). It just was not tolerated in my house, we didn't swear at each other, the very odd swear word would leak out in front of my Mother, but I was always very embarrassed, it wasn't punished usually because my Mother realised it was because of heightened emotions or what not.

Other friends used to openly swear at parents/be defiant and rude, which was met by swear words/arguing from the parents. Just different types of households. Some friends seemed to be much more pally/friends with their parents too rather than strictly parent/child iyswim. Probably down to the age difference between parent/child, not only parenting style.

I would be removing privileges if rudeness continued, it's not much to ask for people to talk to each other in a reasonable manner.

[tracyvontrapp]

I try and ignore the odd bout of passive-aggressive eye-rolling & muttering, but if it's obvious and confrontational then I think you have to respond. Ask her if she ever speaks to any other adult like that (I bet she doesn't).

If the photo isn't in very small pieces, maybe someone could put it back together digitally?

[misspollysdolly]

The photo is in about 27 pieces

We are trying to see if my parents still have a copy or negatives. Have found it hard to be around DD today. She is remorseful but still...bit bloody late for that now.

Thanks for your thoughts. MPD

[GnomeDePlume]

Perhaps the message to get through to your daughter is 'I love you and I always will but when you behave like this I actually dont like you very much at all'.

At your daughter's age they are sometimes very full of themselves and forget that they are not the centre of the universe.

I feel your pain, all three of mine have at some point done something thoughtless and hurtful making me wonder what selfish little monster I have raised. It is a part of development though and a few contrite tears from your DD and living with your profound disapointment may well do her the world of good.

[Miggsie]

In all life situations you get the behaviour you are prepared to tolerate, an old boss told me that years ago and it's so true.

With these situations it helps to have a practical approach to remedy the emotion that caused the crappy behaviour in the first place. I found the book "philosophy for kids" a good start as it makes the reader think about situations. Such as "how come you decided you didn't want a coat?" was she trying to prove a point? Show she wasn't going to do as she was told?
Also, I take the view that if you decided to get yourself into a crap place by ignoring good advice, you have to be able to get out of the crap place, on your own, so...no coat and you get cold, you shut up about it, because you chose to be in that situation. I would not have given DD any sympathy in that situation, if she acts stupidly she takes the consequences. If she is desperate to prove she is independent then let it come out in other ways (she writes her own songs). It is tiring, at first, but in the end you get put in a lot of effort for a year and have several years ok, or you don't put in any effort and get years of crap. I think it's worth those few awful times to get the good times rather than always having crappy times.

This is based on my observations of parenting...my aunt and uncle never ever tackled their children's behavioural and emotional problems when they occurred so they all accumulated, hence, their children had still not fully formed characters or any emotional stability in their late twenties. My mum and dad addressed all these things as they came up, my brother and I were independent and left home as soon as we got jobs...and this was in no small part down to my parent's expectations of our behaviour.

[maybenow]

i wouldn't tolerate rudeness (and would be very angry about the photo) but to go right back to the root of this argument, i don't think it's really helpful to tell a cold teenager that she should have brought a coat.
she probably knew she should have brought a coat, she thought she'd be ok and she wasn't. she was wrong.. rubbing her nose in that doesn't help.
would you say the same to a friend who was cold? (actually i would to a lot of friends, but not to a sensitive friend or one having a shit day anyway - and teenagers are always sensitive and having a shit day )

teenagers will not just do as they're told, it's a developmental stage, they're learning to make their own decisions. if they always just obey their parents they won't grow into adults capable of living in the adult world. i know it's annoying beyond belief but our job is to allow them to make those decisions for themselves and to not do anything that could be percieved as gloating when they get it wrong... as we wouldn't dream of with a toddler learning to walk or feed themselves.

[noddyholder]

My ds was spectacularly rude for 2 years. Now he isn't. It really was as on and off switch as that. I kept banging on with Don't speak to us like that etc etc and he rolled his eyes and stopped for a day max and then was his glorious rude self again. He was sullen and unpleasant to be around and after all the ranting dp and I did we eventually just switched off from it and ignored most of his rudeness and only really engaged with him when it was something positive. Now at 17 he has re emerged as a normal person

[flow4]

It sounds like some people think teenagers are only rude if their parents let them be. Not so. Like noddyholder says, some of them just turn horrible (I'm hoping it's just temporary).
I always challenge rudeness, and if I had a quid for every time I said "please don't talk to me like that" or "it's not ok to be rude" or "you need to change the way you are talking, you sound very rude" or similar, I would be a very rich woman by now.
Sometimes I think he really isn't aware, and sometimes I know he does it deliberately because he is angry with me.
The only consolation is that friends and neighbours tell me what a polite boy he is: it seems he saves his rudeness for home. So I keep on challenging, and do not tolerate rudeness, but I can't stop it. Ultimately, only he can do that.

[lidldarling]

Flow I would be dripping in diamonds if we had the quid rule .

I find it difficult because a lot of the rudeness is hard to pin down - all the eye rolling, questioning everything I say or, more often, not answering me then claiming to have done so, muttering under the breath etc.

I have had some mild and probably temporary success getting the message home by making him do things himself. I made him make his own dinner the other evening (because he told me to make it right now he was hungry ) and he was aghast but afterwards when he had made us all a meal he liked, he was pleased with himself. It's hard to be grateful for something you have not had to do.

[ragged]

I find it difficult because a lot of the rudeness is hard to pin down

Ditto, plus DH & I have completely different perceptions. A single Whatever can drive DH batty, whereas I just out Whatever them back & laugh my head off at their own pathetic version. Meanwhile DH doesn't even seem to hear whinging & whining, which drives me batty. DH is good at deflecting with humour things that make me want to throttle the DC. DC seem to never Whatever me or whinge at DH, strangely enough.

Zero tolerance doesn't work for me (if nothing else, too distracted by 50 other things happening at same time). I sometimes send them to their rooms, out in the cold, or refuse to help them with anything until they speak to me properly. I think focusing directly on the rudeness doesn't help, it encourages them to keep seeking conflict & expressing frustrations thru conflict, when what they really need is to find other ways to express their anger & other negative feelings.

[MrsDmitriTippensKrushnic]

misspolly If you google there are a few places that can repair, or attempt to repair your photo. Not sure how much that sort of restoration costs but I think making your DD cover the costs would be fair (if she's okay with the PC get her to research it all for you)

With regard to rudeness, we've been quite lucky so far - we haven't had out-and-out defiance, more pushing the line cheekiness and I generally just have to point it out. The DSs are pretty laid back though, we don't have that much conflict except me ranting over the state of their rooms

[lidldarling]

I quite agree Ragged - zero tolerance is but a dream for us. I know its a massive cliche, but commenting on their good behaviour can work really well. I find it a bit cringe to keep saying we are really proud of you for x or you did y really well, particularly when they are very small things. A friend and I have a joint agreement - I say to her DD "your mum told me you're really good at x, she's so proud of you!" and she says to our DN, "lild's been singing your praises to me, apparently you were ace at your parents evening" etc. and it's working quite nicely. Also as Maryz 'the teenager's tzar' says, if they are actually doing what you asked don't question too much the rude comment they make as they do it.

[lidldarling]

Ragged, it's a good lesson for them to learn that some behaviours don't wash with certain people while they are fine with others. DN can swear in the presence of DP (although not at him, of course) because he has no problem with it whatsoever but he checks himself with me because I will definitely pick him up on it.

I also tell DN that manners and politeness are power and big pieces in the overall jigsaw of getting where you want to be in life.