CSA assessments and the 2nd family

[kittykat77]

This is my first time posting in this section, but we are at a bit of a loss on what to do now.

Brief history - DH has 1 child with ex, separated 7 yrs ago (before we got together!). Since then DH has always paid his way, and paid way over the top when they got divorced to keep ex happy, so she could keep the house ect.

We have had 2 kids of our own since, and have been paying £200 for the last couple of years. SHe has now gone to CSA, and looking at their website, payments could be as much as £275 per month, based on DH's earnings. We have high living costs,high costs when he does see his son(which is not often due to big problems with access) and also debts which were due to his ex when they split up.

Basically we can only just survive at the moment,and if the CSA demand more money it could mean that we will lose our home. Does anybody have any experience of how sympathetic the CSA are to the 2nd family in cases like these and whether they are likely to take into account our full financial situation, and also the needs of our 2 new children?

[yerblurt]

If you need specific advice then it's worthwhile having a look at the NACSA (www.nasca.co.uk) website.

The basic 'rule-of-thumb' for a CSA assessment is very simple under new (CSA2) rules which operate as a dad tax effectively as it's a percentage of income with deductions for various reasons.

So your partner is liable to one qualifiying child and this will be 15% of net income.

There are deductions of this amount for other children he has with you - so as you have 2 children together then there should be a reduction (I've got a new child with my partner and the reduction is to 10% of net income I seem to remember).

There are further reductions if the child with the ex has overnight staying contact with you (you see how there is an indirect financial incentive for one parent to reduce the amount of overnights a child stays with the other parent - because they will get more money).

So if the child stays for 52 nights per year there is a 1/7 reduction of maintenance assessment, for 152 overnights the reduction is 2/7th.

So those are the key questions you need to answer first...

[kittykat77]

Thanx for the replies. Looking at the CSA website and calculating by the book, we will have a problem paying for everything. Was wondering if we said to CSA our income is X and outgoings are Y, and that doesn't leave our family with enough to live on with increased CSA payments, what the response might be? Would they take this into account?

V.difficult, DH even has to pay for a mobile for his son so he can speak to him, as ex said he is not allowed to contact in any other way.

[shelleylou]

have you read the information about other children? Quick synopsis as your DH has 2 children living with him 20% of his net weekly income is used in the calculation rather than all of his net weekly income.
How often do you and our DH have DSS as from 52 nights a year there is a reduction. As other posters have said you can get a reduction if you have high travelling costs.
HTH.

[yerblurt]

You should be aware that the CSA will make piddling amounts of allowable deductions for travelling costs.

It may be worthwhile contacting your local MP for advice, MPs carry a lot of weight and the Dept Work Pensions (which the CSA is a part of) is under a lot of flak due to the disaster that is the CSA. Pop into your local MPs next surgery with a well-defined list of issues about your case and ask the MP for help.

Is there a court order in place that sets out the parenting/contact arrangements between parents, how many overnights does the child stay over the year?

[kittykat77]

Shelley - I have looked at the CSA website,
and looking at their calculator the difference for having no kids and DH having 2 kids living with him is £14. So in our case it seems he gets a £7 allowance for each of our children. This seems really wrong to me.

Had a feeling that they wouldn't take much into account for all the expenses we have. DH pays about well over £2.5k per year in travelling, and we also have quite alot of loan commitments, some going back to when DH split with his Ex, but whether he can prove what they are for is another thing.

No court order and over the last year contact with DSS has been a very big problem. We have had DSS for 1 week so far this year, and have been told that is pretty much it as far as the contact goes, as all the other times have not been stuck to by his Ex. I know we could go to court to get more contact, but we have absolutely no money, and whether it would be stuck to is questionable, and also very difficult anyway as we live hundreds of miles away.

So a bit of a mess really, and I am just worried the CSA with come back with an assessment we can't pay. So we end up with pretty much no access to DSS, and no money to see him even if the contact arrangements did get better, and 2 children of our own who we are also going to struggle to support. Seems that by being the second family we are very much getting a raw deal here.

[2rebecca]

If he took on loans that he should have split with her then more fool him really. I think the current system is fairer than the old one because I think your children shouldn't lose out financially because you choose to have a large mortgage or commute huge distances.
He may need to get a more economical car. Representing himself in court to see more of his child may be possible, depends on how old the kid is as their views will be taken into account.

[catsmother]

The vast majority of people don't choose a large mortgage Rebecca. Only the lucky few can afford to do that for the sake of a spare bedroom or two, or a prestigious postcode. The vast majority of families have a large mortgage - because house prices have been so crazy - but on the smallest house they can get away with for the size of their family.

Ditto commuting huge distances. This isn't usually a choice but the result of job roles being increasingly centralised and people being unable to afford to live close to their jobs.

I don't know about KK's circumstances but my partner's ex moved his kids 140 miles away from their dad and then adopted a "you want to see them, you come and get them" mentality and refused to share any of the driving. The petrol costs are significant (even with an economical car) and it's completely unfair. As Yerblurt pointed out the so-called travel allowance made by the CSA is totally piddling ..... and if you already get an overnight reduction, they won't allow a travel reduction at all under the "new" rules - thus discriminating against dads, who, through no fault of their own, live several hours drive away from their kids. We worked it out once ..... even if he was given a travel reduction, it'd work out at 5p in each £ - how fair is that ?

Neither is it a question of "more fool him". Debts from a marriage are quite commonly passed onto the absent parent, usually the dad, by the divorce courts. Again, choice doesn't come into it if that's what a judge orders.

KK ...... I really feel for you. Finances post divorce are never usually black and white and a one-size-fits-all formula will never be fair to everyone nor account for 1001 different sets of circumstances. The current CSA rules, don't for example, make any allowance for capital sums handed over during a financial settlement, nor the respective sizes of each party's housing costs (many men have to literally start again from scratch post divorce).

[kittykat77]

Thanks CM. You seem to have a good idea of just how hard these situations are(obviously from experience).

We have heard back from the CSA 'variations' person. Seems there are no variations in our case and basically none of our factors count for a reduction.

DH and I have had a long chat, and have come to the conclusion that we can no longer keep up with the contact, as we are being financially crippled by this. So I guess while the ex will have more money, it will mean that DSS will now loose contact with his Dad. Sad fact, but we just really can't do this anymore.

I think the whole system is wrong and we will be taking this up with our local MP, as was suggested. I very much doubt this will be a quick fix though, if at all, and I think the relationship between us and the Ex is now too broken to go back to reasonable speaking about contact with DS anyway.

[2rebecca]

That is very sad. I'd go without alcohol, holidays and new clothes and move to a smaller flat rather than not see my kids.
Would you do that if your kids lived with their dad if you and partner split up and he got residency?
That seems the worst possible solution to the problem.

[LittleBella]

A "dad tax"?

So I presume I'm paying a mum tax then?

[kittykat77]

I can see your point 2rebecca, but the fact is that we are stretched to the limit as it is at the moment.

There is only so much money in the pot to go around, and we have no more. Seeing DSS means a 850 mile round trip to pick him up and drop him back, and with the cost of fuel there is just no way we can do that with the extra we will now have to pay out according to the CSA formulars.

Also DH & I would go without stuff (our budget only allows for the minimum anyway) but I still have to feed and provide clothes for my own 2 children. And unfortunately I don't get £275 a month from somewhere else to do that.

Moving is not even an option. We have negitive equity in our house. So I would agree, none of this is the ideal solution, but the harsh reality of the matter is we have no other choice.

Will try investigating what the protected income is though Fiofio. Anything is worth a try at this stage.

[catsmother]

That is really sad KK, but what can you do when you're well and truly up against the wall ?

So far as protected income is concerned at the CSA I have a feeling that this was one of the considerations under the "old" rules there. If KK's DH's ex has only just gone to the CSA, there is no such thing as protected income under the "new" rules.

You have no choice about paying CSA, no matter what the background - and even if, in a case like this, it means the dad can't afford the travel needed to see his child. Morally .... there's something fundamentally wrong there, if a combination of circumstances means that the father/child relationship is made more or less impossible but I don't know what the answer is. It's certainly a point worth raising with your MP if only to illustrate how some dads are between a rock and a hard place .... and of course, this sort of situation can hardly be in the child's best interests either.

Your DH will need to try and keep a relationship going no matter what ... eg. with letters, emails, MSN, webcam maybe ? Dunno how easy this would be if contact has been a past problem though ?

[kittykat77]

CM,

DH does speak to his son twice a week (on a mobile we sent him and pay for) so I guess this will continue. And if the ex has the extra money, I guess she will think she has 'won' - (very bad terminology and hate to refer to it like this, but this really is exactly what the relationship with the ex has been reduced to) so maybe she will let this continue (she very much likes to think she is in control of all DH's contact with DSS, and contact either verbal or actual has always been on her terms).

I am just hoping that DH can continue speaking to DSS for now, and I guess one day he will be old enough to do his own thing, and the ex will be totally out of the equation.

I agree though the system is very wrong, and certainly not in the best interests of any of the children involved (both DSS and my own children).

[kittykat77]

Well just for the record we have had a letter from the CSA today.

Our assessment has come back at almost £300 per month.

Basically this is far more than DH actually earns. They have based it on a back payment he received last month for a pay rise dating back to January, the tax rebate that the whole nation got last month for the tax system being changed. And to top it all off they have even assessed on the tax relief we get by claiming childcare vouchers for our own children to be looked after to help us to be a working family.

I just cannot believe this. It is totally outrageous and something has to be done about this system. DH is on the verge of quitting his job he is so angry about it. Maybe if the system was actually fair then more dad's would pay it and not try to hide from the CSA to avoid it. And this is from someone who has always supported his child.

The fact that the CSA do not give a dam about whether there is enough money to provide for our own children in this has got to be completely wrong. So children are supported as long as they are from a split relationship as far as I can see.

Sorry. really had to have a rant about that.

[mummynumber2]

I advise you to contact the NACSA as soon as possible. You have to pay for a yearly subscription for them but they really are good at fighting your case for you and generally talking you through what to do. They've (along with a very surprising bit of help from DP's ex) just helped us sort out a year long battle with them which very nearly resulted in them taking 40% of DP's salary. They made a lot of mistakes and claimed we owed thousands of pounds in arrears.

The CSA are notorious for getting income wrong so your DH needs to send them copies of 3 months wage slips as soon as possible and check all of their figures as in our case they constantly changed the amount that dp was supposed to pay. They have completely denied conversations that DP has had with them on the phone so I would advise you to always back up everything in writing and ask them to confirm everything they have said to you in writing.

The CSA don't care about the welfare of any of the children involved, it's about claiming back benefits and reaching targets. They really are a disgraceful organisation.

[ihatetheCSA]

Kitty Kat

I have name changed for this as a lot of people will take offence to what I'm about to write.

My dh has one dc from a previous relationship. Always paid on time and quite a substantial amount. He spilt from his ex about 2 years before I met him.

After we had been together a long time I fell pregnant. His ex went immediately went to the CSA when she found out I was pregnant. The first we knew was when a letter dropped through our door. DH sent in his wage slips and when we was assessed it was for an outrageous amount that we couldn't afford to pay. We had a baby on the way and a huge mortgage due to the high house prices.

I researched all the in and outs of the CSA and then took action to reduce our payments.

This is what I did:

1. dh did no overtime. he then sent the wage slips to the CSA and said he could no longer do overtime so his wages had halfed. (OBv. he resumed the overtime after he had the wage slips)

1. I started a private pension in dh name and made a very large payment into it. We sent the pension papers off to the CSA and also the bank statement which showed us making the payment. We only made the one payment but CSA never checked and it reduced our payment greatly.

The ex complained to the CSA that dh was lying and we had to attend an independent tribunal. She said he must be earning more as our living costs (mortgage) were so high.

I transferred our mortgage into a bank account just held in my name and told the tribunal that I payed the mortgage through my own capital and that he had nothing to do with it. I used proof which I dont want to be public to prove I had capital which I never had.

Because his ex didn't attend the tribunal we were looked on more favourably as we did attend with all our (fake) evidence.
We won and our payments are now a quarter of what we was paying.

It was a risky thing to do but it worked. We pay a very small amount each week now and we can afford oour mortgage.

What I'm saying is read up on everything and see if you can turn things to your favour.

There is a really good website which I used for help but its offline till misd october. If your still having problems then post on MN and I'll link to the site for you.

And to anybody who wants to flame me for this, get screwed. I did what I had to do to protect my family and keep a roof over my dc's head. His ex went to the CSA maliously because she was jealous, she would still be getting a nice amount if she had acted so spitefully.

[LittleBella]

well that's all right then ihatethecsa, if he ever walks out on you then no doubt you won't mind if the next wife screws you because her children matter more than yours.

It doesn't matter at all that his children are being financially disadvantaged, so long as your kids are ok. Because obviously, they matter more. Nice attitude to your stepchildren.

[ihatetheCSA]

Firstly he didn't walk put on his ex she cheated on him and even though he forgave her she left and took his dc with her. He went to court to get PR rights as they weren't automatically given back then. He fought for regular access and has always made her a priority in his life.

Secondly I already mentioned that we paid a substantial amount each month for many years without missing a penny. This would have continued if she hadn't gone to the CSA. She shot herself in the foot.

Thirdly We have dh dd three times a week and have never let her down and are rarely late. She has her own room in her house. This was very important to us when we were looking at houses as we hope she will live with us when she is older. When we can afford a holiday (which isnt often) she comes with us. We go halves on school uniform, school trips and the school photo. She does not come second to anyone.

But is extremely important to everyone, that we can pay our mortgage every month and provide a home for our daughter and my step daughter.

Bella, can I add you sound as bitter as dh's ex.

[yerblurt]

good for you ihatetheCSA

[LittleBella]

Oh yes of course I'm bitter, all us exes are, doncha know. We're also all responsible for the behaviour of our exes and their new partners ("she shot herself in the foot" oh really, she made you do it then). It's the only possible reason I could find it really distasteful to read on a parenting website, hints and tips on how to cheat other mothers and children out of money which is legally owed them. Not because I may believe that it's morally wrong, oh no, of course not, it must purely and simply be because I am bitter.

Funny how I don't need to throw foul mysogynist insults at you or change my posting name to do so though.

[ivykaty44]

I would tell your d/h ex to think very long and hard before getting the CSA involved, I do not mean this maliciously either.

CSA take payments directly from ex wages - they pay that money into my bank account any time they like between the 1st of the month to the 24 of the following month.

CSA get the calculation wrong and then cover up their mistakes - not good if you need stuff for your dc.

Better to continue with the money going as it is and the ex getting regular payments of the same amount.

One month the csa actually payed me someone elses payment! pc error I was told - at this point got my mp involved but even then they could seems to get thing corrected.

I know they did this as his other ex had my payment so the csa couldn't sweep it under the carpet.

Your dh's ex must be totally bonkers and if you want I will tell her.

None of this was down to my ex -this was all mistakes and cock ups by the csa.